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Andy Garton
06-09-2012, 11:13
This build contains some experimental FFB changes. They've had very little testing apart from on the Fanatec CSW - the testing is down to you guys :)

There are a few things you should do as a result:

1. Start with a clean player profile - the launcher/installer will prompt for this anyway. If in doubt just delete the file called default.sav in your Documents\CARS\profiles folder.

2. Delete (or rename if you don't want to lose them) any files in your Documents\CARS\FFB folder.

3. Run with the in-game FFB options at default initially to see what you think (i.e. before making your "usual" tweaks which have been necessary for previous builds).

4. Default FFB strength may be too strong on some wheels (it will be on the CSW for example). Just lower the "Force Feedback" strength % in the controller options menu to suit (and/or "Tyre Force" if it's purely the tyre driven force that you want to reduce).

5. If all else fails and you hate it or it just works badly on your wheel, unzip the attached file and put it in a folder called "FFB" in Documents\CARS. This is the FFB tweaker defaults from build 291. It won't be exactly the same as 291 as there are some code updates as well, but it should be pretty close and therefore driveable.

6. Please post all FFB specific feedback in this thread. (I don't expect everybody to follow this as they won't read this thread, but it should help me a bit at least.)

41827

FLX81
06-09-2012, 11:33
Would it help having this as a popup message in the launcher or the main menu or whatever? No idea how much work it would be to implement that, though.

Andy Garton
06-09-2012, 11:35
More work than we have time for before the build, but in any case everybody just clicks "OK" as quick as they can on any installer popup :)

Michael Steiner
06-09-2012, 11:51
Where should we collect the feedback for the ffb-strenght?
In the old thread?

FFB Test Request (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9059-FFB-Test-Request)

It would be helpful if there is a link in the OP.

I'll take the part collecting the values in the spreadsheet (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9059-FFB-Test-Request&p=235655&viewfull=1#post235655).


Post your results of your ffb strength test here:
FFB Test Request (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9059-FFB-Test-Request)

Andy Garton
06-09-2012, 12:07
In the old thread is fine. I'd rather not link it here as I don't want to confuse the issue somewhat for the unwashed masses :)

One additional note based on early internal feedback - because the FFB is now driven primarily from the tyres, when you lock the wheels under braking there is quite a strong effect. You'll probably find this odd (or crap) initially, but give it a chance - you really shouldn't be locking up the tyres anyway so it's worth working on your brake modulation and/or brake pressure/balance setup to ensure it doesn't happen. I actually think the force effect is a good guide here - it may not be 100% true to reality (I'll regret writing that probably), but it does help "fill in the blanks" of the seat of the pants feedback missing in a sim compared to the real world.

Remco Van Dijk
06-09-2012, 12:21
Personally I like the effect. It would be great to have a strength tuning dial for it later, but I like how it conveys a feeling of 'you're losing control' with the shaking and resistance getting light when the wheels lock and the tyres slide.

Pugamall
06-09-2012, 12:30
Personally I like the effect. It would be great to have a strength tuning dial for it later, but I like how it conveys a feeling of 'you're losing control' with the shaking and resistance getting light when the wheels lock and the tyres slide.

Agreed, at first was like WTF ?, who hit me, but then got used to it, and felt like I could be more precise

GAT_Montana
06-09-2012, 12:30
May I ask how it should look like if it would work correctly?

Acceleration: you loose weight (force) on the steering wheel as long as the car accelerates.
Brake: weight on the steering wheel should increase as long as you have grip. If you loose grip the weight should decrease, the wheel starts rumble.

Correct?

Remco Van Dijk
06-09-2012, 12:33
May I ask how it should look like if it would work correctly?

Acceleration: you loose weight (force) on the steering wheel as long as the car accelerates.
Brake: weight on the steering wheel should increase as long as you have grip. If you loose grip the weight should decrease, the wheel starts rumble.

Correct?
Sounds about right, though you need to take into account the resistance getting bigger with increasing speed (wheels rotating faster) and hence decreasing resistance when slowing down, which counteracts the effects that you describe.

ZiggyUK
06-09-2012, 14:28
It's fantastic that this is being addressed but won't AJ's new tyre model muck all this up or have you been working in conjunction with AJ?

Looking forward to trying this out Friday and Andy ignore any negative feedback you get about this setup from those who are not willing to give it a chance, you just know there will be some within an hour of general release. Wait until midweek before taking notice, that way you will have true feedback from people who have persisted with the new feel.

Tiago Fortuna
06-09-2012, 15:09
We had steering rack FFB in the 1st place because of the community. I truly hope you don't regret what you wrote above Andy.

Ziggy, i'd say AJ is on par with this... or actually, even if he's not, no problem. It seems its reversible :) Lets see how it goes first.

Remco Van Dijk
06-09-2012, 15:34
It's fantastic that this is being addressed but won't AJ's new tyre model muck all this up or have you been working in conjunction with AJ?

I think that sometimes people should re-consider what they wrote before posting it ;) You make it sound that possibly Andy and the other SMS devs don't know what they're doing or wasting their time implementing stuff that will be obsolete in 4 weeks time :) Of course you didn't mean it like that, but it can be interpreted like that ;)

Lukas Macedo
06-09-2012, 15:39
Thanks for publishing the current ingame FFBTweakers values. I have been wondering what they were for a while.

Bean0
06-09-2012, 15:40
I think that sometimes people should re-consider what they wrote before posting it ;) You make it sound that possibly Andy and the other SMS devs don't know what they're doing or wasting their time implementing stuff that will be obsolete in 4 weeks time :) Of course you didn't mean it like that, but it can be interpreted like that ;)

NTM in 4 weeks then ?

:p

Andy Garton
06-09-2012, 15:41
Of course AJ is involved, much of the FFB work basically came from him - he's primarily using a pure tyre driven FFB data set to develop the new tyre model.

Andy Garton
06-09-2012, 15:42
We had steering rack FFB in the 1st place because of the community. I truly hope you don't regret what you wrote above Andy.
I don't follow this, what do you mean please?

ZiggyUK
06-09-2012, 15:46
I think that sometimes people should re-consider what they wrote before posting it ;) You make it sound that possibly Andy and the other SMS devs don't know what they're doing or wasting their time implementing stuff that will be obsolete in 4 weeks time :) Of course you didn't mean it like that, but it can be interpreted like that ;)

Mmmmm ... see you what you mean Remco. As it is a forum I tend to drop in and out and only leave comments where I think it would helpful but I can see how someone could misconstrue comments I make.

As you quite rightly state I meant no offense to any of the Dev's (great bunch of guys) is just that other people, we do have quite a few here, that will complain like crazy and bitch on. Personally I am getting sick of some of the stupid comments aimed at the devs and believe the forum rules should be tighter especially at those who appear to only be here to incite a riot. Maybe have a dislike button as well as a like button on the forum posts but then I am sure some idiots would abuse that as well.

Remco Van Dijk
06-09-2012, 15:49
Mmmmm ... see you what you mean Remco. As it is a forum I tend to drop in and out and only leave comments where I think it would helpful but I can see how someone could misconstrue comments I make.
It's no biggie, just trying to minimize the amount of time that the devs have to spend on answering the obvious :)

wizza
06-09-2012, 16:17
Cant wait to test this ...so we post all feed back in THIS thread...correct???

Tiago Fortuna
06-09-2012, 21:43
As per OP it is. So here I am, proudly.

Asano x4 (was fresh in my muscle memory), 60x accelerated time, Bolonha, 10 laps.

1st lap T1 -I'm betting all will say the same, which is: "<insert swearing here> good thing there are gravel traps :D

T4-T5 - the breaking was a mess again... as T5 is way slower and you're still decelerating and below 100kph or so the brakes are to strong (but from higher speeds are perfect). So I barely missed the gravel trap.. again.

T8-T9 by now i was already getting the hang of it it wasn't so bad

Chicane - Now I knew better. Loved the aggressiveness this new FFB induces. On the exit turning very quickly and the front biting, I knew exactly where I was. the scrub felling is amazing. Its possible to feel the weight clearly shifting from the left to right and under braking is even more evident.

Long story short, by lap 3 I was in night time and perfectly adapted to the car.

@Andy, compared the X4 from yesterday to today, is a BIG improvment IMHO. Unfortunatly might opinion my not count as much as others much more experienced. Anyway, using a widely known quote as analogy "I might not know much about art but I know what I like" :D

Going to double check now with 10 laps around CHGP ;)

Timmynator
06-09-2012, 22:06
I'll just leave my quick feedback here.

Tested the Mono on CHGP and imho FFB still needs some work. First, the overall level seems to be too weak, in corners it feels like the electric "comfort" power steering many car manufacturers use nowadays to aid low-speed/stationary steering. Further, it seems like the wheel will too easily simulate a loss of grip. This might just be my lack of experience with a track car on a bumpy track, but with the default setup it feels like the car loses (front) grip upon almost every turn-in or high-speed steering input. Maybe a better way to put it is that the wheel will often simulate too high a level of grip loss. I understand that especially on a bumpy track with lots of camber change, there will be grip issues but imho the combination of generally weak FFB (at least with the combination Mono/CHGP) and "loss of grip"-simulation doesn't quite feel right.

I did manage to set a new PB for some reason, though. Maybe a bit more weight behind the steering will already solve my issue. Hope this helps Andy.

hoodi4cars
06-09-2012, 22:07
My initial impressions of the FFB (game settings default, Logitech FFB strength at 107%):

The center spring force seems to be generally stronger by default in most cars, which I like. I think the steering feeling at low speeds has much improved, I can actually feel the friction of the tyres moving over the tarmac at low speeds, which gives me the "connected to the road" feel. I also love the sudden center spring force loss when the tyres lock up during heavy braking. It feels very good and really helps in terms of driving. In general I had the feeling that there's much more going on in the center spring force - more changes in the force, feels more detailed and GOOD!

What I noticed in a negative way is that you no more feel the rumble when running over kerbs at the most times - especially not when going fast. I don't feel anything in some kerbs where I definately felt something before this build.

What got neither better nor worse for me is the lack of proper understeer feel, I think its effect is too subtle and I often hear the tyres start sqeezing without feeling any changes in my wheel. This feels werid for me, because if I hear and see that the tyres loose grip, I expect the center spring to get lighter. However it stays the same, and you just get this little subtle rattling effects. And the Asano, Apollo and Paganis still feel kind of, sorry for this one in advance, arcadeish to me, I don't know why but these cars just seem to be floating over the track and ignoring the laws of physics, especially at very high speeds.

Overall tbh I wouldn't swear that the changes made the driving feel really better, I just don't play enough to be able to tell all the little differences for sure. But what I can say for sure is that it definately didn't get worse either! If I had to choose, I would say it's better.

PS: On a side note, if this helps you in some way: Ever since I joined the project I think the Formula A has the best driving feel - I totally feel connected to the road at all times with this car, it feels right and real, and it's probably the best driving feel and FFB experience I ever felt in any game!

ZiggyUK
06-09-2012, 22:08
Its possible to feel the weight clearly shifting from the left to right and under braking is even more evident.

Glad to hear the shift of weight is there, to me this is very important part of my style of driving.

Tiago Fortuna
06-09-2012, 22:12
Ok, did the 10 laps with the X4 around CHGP... 1st time I finished 1st in this track/car combo and .200 or of my best time. I almost did in 10 laps what it took me 4 times more if I count the laps done yesterday only.

Something must be going in the right direction :D

PS: I felt the pull effect talked about in FFB tweak thread in this track twice. Did not notice it in Bolonha. Maybe because I preper CHGP and i'm beter at it and pushed bit harder...

Anyway, the X4 for a 1st pass with this new FFB is going great.

[edit]

@Ziggy, way better than 291 at least with th X4. its now a better representation of what I think it should be like driving a monster like this.

Gopher04
06-09-2012, 22:14
Hmm the more i use this the more i like the feel, it does take abit of getting use to, but for the first time i can say i love the weight of the wheel...;) please don't alter this..the effect are really starting to show them self now as well especially the rumble strips, love the loss of weight when in opposite lock, and going back to the snatching effect under braking, so far the x4 touring seems to suffer the most, but im getting happier by the sec..:a37:

M4MKey
06-09-2012, 22:16
Well, tried also the X4 on CHGP and it feels good. But not that different from the previous tyre+SoP FFB.

could_do_better
06-09-2012, 22:19
I am back to hving virtually no force in understeer situations, that makes it pretty much impossible to drive. Went back to tires+sop and the understeer feeling is back but now masked by the center spring, maybe I have to drop the FFB strengthdown to 60 or so. Off to give it a try.

I'll keep trying the new default values but in the X4 at least something is broken. Also when startionay I have a strong turning force until I get to approx 180-220 degrees in either direction then the force simply disappears. A clue to what is wrong????

EDIT: With the default FFB settings and strength set to 85%, I can drive the X4 at CH again, the change down jolt is pretty severe but the understeer feeling is back and I can lap with confidence.

I also had one case where there was no spring force in the menus or when drving. I had to reboot to get it back. It has been a VERY long time since that last happened, probably before the spring force was removed.

50footELVIS
06-09-2012, 22:22
So... The strength Tuning Dial will go to... :p
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i100/050FTELVIS/this-one-goes-to-eleven-l3.jpg

Christiaan van Beilen
06-09-2012, 23:23
Andy, I just did a quick run with the CSW here and loved the changes you made. It feels great.

Though if I have to be picky... The FFB strength from standstill to barely rolling could use a little more fade effect if you know what I mean (so more gradually from hard to turn to easy to turn). Just a little though. So that the strength reduces over a longer speed range (talking about .5 kilometers a minute orso though).

Ps. Could you please update the CSW button preset to match the latest CSW firmware? Especially clutch, car reset and paddles shifters.

Umer Ahmad
06-09-2012, 23:54
Guys: I just experienced my very first HAND-GASM :a03:

Damn, I wish we had this (good) FFB in S2U. Rookie + new b296 + Badenring Short+ FFB/TYRE @ 75/80 = SO MUCH WIN! It's like a new game. I knew SMS would crack this nut soon! WELL F*CKING done AndyG/AJ/anyone-else-involved!!

The weight is "medium/light" just the way I like it (not interested in breaking my G27) and the effects are helpful but not so overbearing that they destroy the experience. It's all there: vibe, kerbs, braking, weight transfer. Haven't played an SMS title that felt this well....ever.

Default b296 FFB/TYRE @ 75/100 was too "noisy" for the Rookie, so I just dropped the Tyre forces 20% (edit2: 70/70 is even perfectER) and it's close to perfect (for me). I cleared out my "FFB" folder from last night so I'm just using whatever AndyG coded up this week.



side note: I just transferred USD$1,500 from a stock trading account I totally forgot about to my main banking account earlier today and that money should be making it's way over here soon. The motivation wasn't the FFB code, or the BMWs...but I just wish to continuously support this development to the best of my abilities because SMS is a great team and deserves our continuous support regardless of "I wish this/that was better" or "I'm waiting for <insert favorite track/car>" kind of logic.

big edit: I had Logitech Centering Spring checked/enabled and set to "50%" last night so I unchecked the damn thing. So I'm not sure if the 'giant centering spring' I reported previously is now gone because of this profiler setting or AndyG's new code or both. Regardless, it's gone now.

Alejandro Gorgal
06-09-2012, 23:57
So far I've only tried the M1 but my god what a car, the new FFB is fantastic. Usually I switch to the SoP tweaker but I think this time Im staying on the defaults.
Great feel, very useful feedback (I actually like the tire locking effect), also the M1's sound is fantastic :)

Christopher Hall-Nelson
07-09-2012, 00:27
Im loving the effect from FFB when braking. The PULL to the left/right that you get at the point just before you lock up is amazing.
Being able to finally get the info i want from the wheels output makes a world of difference, nice work guys!:a01:

M4MKey
07-09-2012, 00:49
huh ? It isn't amazing ! It's a well known bug from the devs and will certainly be solved at a certain point of the development. The fact that the steering wheel goes lighter when locking wheels may be correct. But i'm not so sure about the steering wheel being pulled just under braking.

GTWelsh
07-09-2012, 00:55
I dunno, what does a lock up feel like ? I would of thought it would pull the wheel tbh .

Alexander McKenzie
07-09-2012, 00:58
Hopefully this will make up for my comments on the audio Andy!

The new FFB is fantastic! As others have said it feels like a completely new game! I'm not going to try and describe what I like about it because I find it hard to describe in words but it gives me the same smile Racerooms audio gave me! Twice in one night. Brilliant!

I like it so much I am going to advise everyone reading my FFB thread not to bother with any of the XML files in my spreadsheet and just stick to the default settings. They blow everything else out of the water.

Have a cookie!

Droid750
07-09-2012, 01:16
I don't know, on my DFGT cars that had great FFB before now have weak FFB, and cars that had bad FFB now got slightly better, but not much. The tire lock thing is way to powerful compared to other effects, and also annoying.

For me this a step back from the 291 build, i don't feel the constant FFB i had before, but how knows, maybe it's only my wheel. Waiting for the next week build, hoping this is going to get fixed.

Alejandro Gorgal
07-09-2012, 01:22
For me this a step back from the 291 build, i don't feel the constant FFB i had before, but how knows, maybe it's only my wheel. Waiting for the next week build, hoping this is going to get fixed.

You can always use the FFB tweaker posted on the first post of this thread, Andy says it should feel very similar to the previous feedback.

Tiago Fortuna
07-09-2012, 01:35
Just had the best FFB experience ever. The weight on the wheel actually increases as the speed goes up. FA back to normal (one I struggle to drive that is) but now with greater feel and a much more believable. It was too easy in 291 to drive (too easy meaning if I could do it anyone can :o )

Now its going in the right direction. Enough testing. Need to sleep :s

PS: Tested the Cat SP300, the JP-LM and 'cat classic, both racers and the Zonda R. So far all improved in feel be it in weight or road detail. To a noob in this things like me, its the best feel so far.

Diego Micolli
07-09-2012, 01:52
well, I'm one of those who expected the change, feels much the car on the track, the effect to 90 or 100 degrees of rotation is amazing, then as it gets out. in a straight line as the car still looks fleet, anyway is the good way, very happy with the change and here would be the starting point with the FFB. a big hug from Argentina.

MickyMutton
07-09-2012, 02:05
FFB feels the best it ever has for me, What gets me though is when flat out down a straight you can see the car bumping and jumping up and down and little jerks left and right but you get no feel of that through the wheel? If the devs could get those movements to translate to the wheel It would feel fantastic! Through the corners it feels great, also under breaking it feels great (maybe a little to much pull left/right under heavy breaking) but still feels a shit load better than it ever has before IMO. I don't have the wheel/driver animation on any more but when I did I could see the wheel and hands correcting the little undulations in the track bumps, now I see the cars nose cone jumping and jerking but I get no feel of that through the wheel, If that could be implemented through to the users wheel It would feel fantastic!

Tested With FB and F Rookie.

All in all great work. It feels a whole lot better than before.

MM

ibby
07-09-2012, 02:30
Ok I tried a couple of cars now. Overall I really like the direction the FFB has gone. :)

Formula A has a very strong steering resistance now which also causes alot of oscillation for me. The effects are awesome though.
Formula Rookie on the other hands feels pretty much perfect except for the weak braking feedback.
Formula B has slightly too strong steering resistance for me. Effects feel top notch though.. Braking is alot of fun with this car now. :)

Bac Mono has slightly too light steering resistance for me now but very good braking feedback. ( Possibly even too much info ? )
Procar has pretty good steering resistance, however the effects seem all a bit subdued.
X4 steering resistance seems about right to me. Effects slightly weak, that wheel going light thing at the end of a braking zone feels a bit overdone.
Pagani Huayra has pretty good steering resistance now, the effects are a bit too strong, too much pulling under braking etc

So yeah in general those wheel pulling under braking and wheel going light effects are a bit too much right now.
Something inbetween what we had before and now would be perfect for me i think.
Overall i think i need to put FFB strength even a bit lower than the default 75% now.. especially when driving the Fa.

WallyM
07-09-2012, 03:01
*cough* Ben Collins *cough*

Joni Varis
07-09-2012, 05:23
One thing about pcars ffb has been bothering me since the start is that it seems like ffb is somehow connected to framerate you are getting. I Feel that with higher fps i get much lighter but detailed ffb when with lower fps wheel feels much heavier and ffb less detailed (probably cause heavier centerring spring effect).

Been experiencing this with 2 different comps with totally different hardware on it so its definately not related to hardware.

RacingTopsy
07-09-2012, 05:24
I'm not really getting any pulling at all under braking? G25 and no profiler used for the test.

Also, I'm not sure if the steering from 0-~12mph is maybe a bit very heavy. Will tweak it a bit soon.

bottom line:
All in all it feels great :D

Christiaan van Beilen
07-09-2012, 05:42
*cough* Ben Collins *cough*

I like your coughing there. I also do wonder about his input on all the changes over the many months since his last post/input here. :)

AyrtonBoy
07-09-2012, 06:20
I use formula A track Monza and i test new FBB with my Gt3 V1 fanatec wheel and this build 296 is very cool , better the build 291 !Good Job i use 40% FFB in game and tyre model 45% but i have Wheel with Mod FFB (enhanced four times the original in FFB)
I pray you do not go back to the previous version :)

MEFF1091
07-09-2012, 06:44
i liked the direct feel of tyres, good progress on ffb:)

TheDoctor46
07-09-2012, 07:38
first time I can feel understeering and locked front tires...no it's time to turn off ABS :) well done!! Overall pretty strong FFB, but I like it that way ;)

Joni Varis
07-09-2012, 07:43
I dont really like new ffb that much, centering spring effect is just far too strong and if you take down overall strenght then you dont feel the other effects anymore at all. Also the the "grip loss" feel is just unnatural, you dont start to feel loosing it linearily like with other sims that wheel gets softer step by step when you are close to going over the slip curve, now wheel just goes from really stiff to totally loose suddenly.

Brainbug
07-09-2012, 07:45
@devs
may i ask for an official statment how to set up logitech g2x wheels in profiler?

as far as i understood from some dev-posts it should look like this in the past:

- allow game to adjust settings -ticked-
- overall effect strength -100- (some may prefer 104 or even higher)
- spring effect strength -some devs say 100, some say 0- (do "allow game to adjust settings" let pcars set it up automatically?)
- damper effect strength -see spring effect strength-
- combined pedals -unticked-
- degrees of rotation -900-

now the "new" thing maybe relevant for build 296+:
- enable centering spring -???- (previously unticked)
- centering spring stength -???-

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 07:52
You should have spring and damper off and allow game to adjust settings ticked. There is a sticky thread in the controller forum showing our settings in detail.

Different point - for those with the MASSIVELY HORRIBLE SELF TURNING/PULL BUG UNDER BRAKING, does this happen always or only when you lock up the wheels please?

59m2z
07-09-2012, 07:55
Any reason why this important post is appearing under "New Posts (BB)" , and not "Dev Posts (PCARs)" ?

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 08:02
BTW, the "re-enabled spring force" change only affects the car when stationary (actually, up to 5mph) - it's this which gives the steering appropriate weight when the car is stopped. It should have no effect when driving (unless there's a bug of course).

EDIT - just realised that when using the Logitech Profiler you may indeed need to have spring effects ticked to enable this to work - could somebody confirm please? If the wheel is heavy at a standstill yet you have it unticked then it isn't required.

Brainbug
07-09-2012, 08:06
@andy
you may remember its not the first time i ask related to logitech profiler settings. ;)
i know very well we have this "devs controller settings thread", i see you latest post there. you will see there that the last posting related to logitech g2x is from 27-02-2012.
while you loose no word about the "centering spring" for build 296+ i understand it as "no different" settings as befor (27-02-2012).

btw, still, i do not unterstand why you refusing to loose to much words about "how you want the testers to set up the hardware". maybe im the only one who think that hardware-settings may influence the game-experience and therefor the testing-results.
could be you think im bugging; in the end im just trying to help getting "good" and right testing results.

M4MKey
07-09-2012, 08:09
BTW, the "re-enabled spring force" change only affects the car when stationary (actually, up to 5mph) - it's this which gives the steering appropriate weight when the car is stopped. It should have no effect when driving (unless there's a bug of course).

EDIT - just realised that when using the Logitech Profiler you may indeed need to have spring effects ticked to enable this to work - could somebody confirm please? If the wheel is heavy at a standstill yet you have it unticked then it isn't required.

It works perfectly without having it ticked even while launching the game via profiler. Don't worry Andy :) About the pull issue, I find that it happens even during heavy braking without locking wheels ( which could be heard ). So I just tweaked the Fxphase to 0.01 to keep the minimum of the effect in extreme situation and it seem to work quite good for me.

Tiago Fortuna
07-09-2012, 09:04
You should have spring and damper off and allow game to adjust settings ticked. There is a sticky thread in the controller forum showing our settings in detail.

Different point - for those with the MASSIVELY HORRIBLE SELF TURNING/PULL BUG UNDER BRAKING, does this happen always or only when you lock up the wheels please?

Only under braking it seems. But its not my case or it is subtle. The M4MKey FFBTweak masks it completely for me at the cost of losing detail especially on heavier cars.


BTW, the "re-enabled spring force" change only affects the car when stationary (actually, up to 5mph) - it's this which gives the steering appropriate weight when the car is stopped. It should have no effect when driving (unless there's a bug of course).

EDIT - just realised that when using the Logitech Profiler you may indeed need to have spring effects ticked to enable this to work - could somebody confirm please? If the wheel is heavy at a standstill yet you have it unticked then it isn't required.

I use the Logitech with spring effects disabled and have no problem.

Magik
07-09-2012, 09:04
Different point - for those with the MASSIVELY HORRIBLE SELF TURNING/PULL BUG UNDER BRAKING, does this happen always or only when you lock up the wheels please?
Yeah it seems to be lock up thing, starting to feel it when front is on the edge of the grip and when wheels got locked it pulls quite heavy.
Also there is big wheel rattling on low speeds.

GAT_Montana
07-09-2012, 09:11
Different point - for those with the MASSIVELY HORRIBLE SELF TURNING/PULL BUG UNDER BRAKING, does this happen always or only when you lock up the wheels please?

On my PWTS it appears at any time if I break and steer, indpendened from to lock up the wheels. But the file from M4MKey fixed it.


BTW, the "re-enabled spring force" change only affects the car when stationary (actually, up to 5mph) - it's this which gives the steering appropriate weight when the car is stopped. It should have no effect when driving (unless there's a bug of course).

As long as the car stands still and I am on the break the force is there and its self centering a little as I would expect in real life, thats perfect! If the car stands still and I dont break it feels lose without any kind of self centering.

br, Andy

DreamWeaver
07-09-2012, 10:44
I dont really like new ffb that much, centering spring effect is just far too strong and if you take down overall strenght then you dont feel the other effects anymore at all. Also the the "grip loss" feel is just unnatural, you dont start to feel loosing it linearily like with other sims that wheel gets softer step by step when you are close to going over the slip curve, now wheel just goes from really stiff to totally loose suddenly.

Yes, I think the feel of transition from grip to no grip to grip is to hard. Especially going from no grip to grip feels like hitting a curb or driving through a pothole.

DreamWeaver
07-09-2012, 10:51
I only feel that pulling effect when I break into a corner / the steering wheel is not centered.
Actually it is less pulling and more jolt-like. Like the front of the car would jump up and down into the corner.


Edit:
I forgot to add that it only happens when the tyres starting to lock and going into a corner or steering wheel is not centered.

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 10:53
The pull effect definitely only happens for me when the wheels actually lock (tested used the BAC Mono at Northampton fwiw). I think because I have the advantage of a load cell brake pedal it's easy for me to find this limit, and modulate very finely between the two. Obviously we can't assume everybody will have the same hardware though so we'll probably need to do something clever :)

(The lowering FxPhase solution does fix it, but I don't like the downsides in the loss of feel/detail.)

MickyMutton
07-09-2012, 11:00
I only feel that pulling effect when I break into a corner / the steering wheel is not centered.
Actually it is less pulling and more jolt-like. Like the front of the car would jump up and down into the corner.

I agree, only when the wheel is turned under breaking when the wheels lock up do I get the pull.

Timmynator
07-09-2012, 11:07
I'll have to apologize to Andy here, turns out my Profiler didn't save the "allow game to modify settings". FFB now is awesome :)

YoLolo69
07-09-2012, 11:10
Ok so I didn’t have a look in this thread to avoid to be influenced by other opinions. The test I made yesterday night was using the same car/track combo than the one I used all the week long: Rookie at Anhalp. I hope my explanations will be clear (barrier language)...

My FFB directory didn’t even exist and my profile was deleted like recommended. Entering the game, I set back my visual settings and in Controls ones I only removed dead zones from pedals and calibrate my G25 wheel, so I kept first default FFB and Tires (75 and 100).

I used 2 laps like this with the feeling I lost all feedbacks and my wheel was far away too light. So I tested through 75, 80, 85, 90 and 95% FFB and stopped here. At this point I can see 2 things: a really good step forward, and too many bad steps backward.

I can feel a better FFB at low speed and that's pretty cool, and now I feel when I lost grip during curves or braking at high speed, I feel it really well!

In fact, I feel it too well and too early IMO. This is not progressive and as soon as I turn the wheel FFB go lighter even if I don't lose the grip. All curves on this track can be pass with no FFB one finger on the wheel as I’m always at the limit from sliding during curves (that's the goal). Tires are screaming without losing the grip (as I'm able to manage well my curve), and the FFB feeling of lost grip is already here (too early?) making the wheel completely light. It could be real and realistic, and possibly I just need more practice to adapt myself to curves now.

During straight line I don't have any feedback at all (but few light track bumps). The "road sound" make you believe your scratching some really small gravels on the track, and no FFB is render at all here. If I force right left movement during a straight I feel some forces here, but really too light IMO regarding the high speed. I had the feeling I had more feedback during straight previously.

So the whole feeling is a less powerful FFB for me. Only one situation when I retrieve the strong FFB with this 95% feeling is when I goes straight on gravels and herbs or hit a wall (it feel even stronger than before in that case I guess and that's why I stopped at 95% FFB). As soon as I'm on the track all is too light including bumps.

Also, if I cut the double-chicane (S2?) I don't feel any chock when my right wheel touch the kerbs and/or herbs first to the right, and after to the left, and after to the right. Nothing at all but sounds.

So in summary I'm happy in one side to feel now lost of grip when turning or braking, but that implies that my whole laps is made with a really lighter FFB. During straight I have nothing (could be normal as I go straight), and during curves as I'm on the limit to slide, the lost grip effect seems here too early, so FFB is too light. I have the feeling than I should have a stronger FFB when I start a curve without sliding at all, and if I put more throttle or turn more my wheel I need to feel it goes lighter when I begin to lost grip and slide. Here the effect come as soon as I start to turn the wheel at the starting of any curve. And I feel nothing when I hit violently kerbs with the right or left side of the car, only when I go straight in the gravel.

Oh and by the way and OT : I had again this really annoying bug about delta of laptimes I had 2 builds ago: All my delta times appear greens and I feel I'm doing a better time than my record, and I soon as I cross the final line all deltas turn suddenly red and the final time don't see any improvement :(

WallyM
07-09-2012, 11:10
I dont really like it.

I tried the Atom 300 at Bologna (DFGT).

The wheel goes too light while cornering, even if you corner conservatively and dont lock the front wheels. There is too much sudden change in the force on the wheel, which feels unrealistic at conservative (i.e. fast, but not breakneck) speeds. I have done a track day in a V8 tintop race car, and the force on the wheel never fluctuated that wildly. The steering felt consistently heavy yet responsive, and the car felt permanently glued to the track, even when powering out of a corner. There just wasnt this heavy/light transition in the force on the wheel which I feel in game.

In the game, if you apply even light brake pressure while turning in (such as light trailbraking), the force on the wheel goes too light and tugs too much to one side over a certain slip angle. It feels completely different to cornering at the same speed without touching the brake pedal, when the force feels much more progressive. It feels like youre locking up the front brakes badly, even with the lightest pressure on the brake pedal.

The Asano feel pretty similar, although it did feel heavier than the Atom.

My favourite car by far is the Formula Rookie it feels most natural to me. I think thats because it doesnt have the power to oversteer wildly, and as a result it feels much more connected to the track. It feels more to me like the V8 race car did in real life, because the force on the wheel is much more consistent, and the car doesnt feel like its sliding through most of the corners.

In netKar, by comparison, the force always feels progressive while cornering unless you do something bad like understeer or oversteer heavily.

BTW, I feel weight on the wheel while stationary even with centre spring unticked in the profiler. When I slam on the brakes in a straight line and lock the wheels, I dont feel any pulling to the side.

Umer Ahmad
07-09-2012, 11:14
I dont really like new ffb that much, centering spring effect is just far too strong and if you take down overall strenght then you dont feel the other effects anymore at all. Also the the "grip loss" feel is just unnatural, you dont start to feel loosing it linearily like with other sims that wheel gets softer step by step when you are close to going over the slip curve, now wheel just goes from really stiff to totally loose suddenly.

Joni: can you try this: Rookie + Badenring National/Short + FFB/TYRE @ 75/75

Make sure Logi Profiler is: 104, 0, 0, Centering unchecked/disabled (level = 0), Allow Game Override = YES/checked/enabled.

I had no 'killer centering spring" effect on my G27 and the overall weight I would categorize as medium/light. All the effects were coming through fine for the most part. Occasionally I would hear a kerb but not feel anything through the wheel but this was only 20% of the time. Some of the lock-ups or grip transitions were not smooth as you describe. But really with these settings I've never felt such good FFB from an SMS game in the past 3 years. No major complaints from me, just some refinements from this point.

You guys need to really pay attention to the FFB/TYRE forces sliders with each car. I took the ZondaR to Wisconsin and could tell immediately that the FFB/TYRE needed to be reduced to about 60/60 because it was naturally heavier/tighter than the Rookie and the FFB effects were coming through much stronger.

Please experiment a little, especially if the FFB feels really "weird" or "bad" to you with this build. If the FFB overall feels too heavy/light, use the FFB slider. And if the effects are too noisy and your G27 feels like it's going to break when you're going over a kerb or braking, then reduce TYRE forces.

I need to experiment with more cars but there's no going back for me from this build.

edit: these observations are based on the "Old PC" in my signature. I haven't tried it yet on my "New PC" but will soon. I was getting about 45 FPS (capped to 47 via DXTory)

edit2/disclosure: I have not played other Sims so there's a strong possibility I don't even know what "really good" FFB feels like. Still, I am able to find some significant FFB enjoyment from my G27 in b296 that SMS has never produced in the prior 3 years.

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 11:22
Good advice Umer. Stating the obvious really but what Joni describes isn't how it's supposed to feel, so something is wrong on his system (so many variables on PC unfortunately so we'll always hit these kind of issues).

Tiago Fortuna
07-09-2012, 11:25
(The lowering FxPhase solution does fix it, but I don't like the downsides in the loss of feel/detail.)

Thats what us testers have been saying ;)

Walkman
07-09-2012, 11:27
Andy i took just one of your xml files and renamed and tested it several times. I assigned the file to formula B and after that to all the cars, then again formula B and again all cars. Just in step 2 (formula B) altered my FFB. Sorry thats all I got so far. It was the Tyres SoP file.

xez
07-09-2012, 11:34
I'm definitely in the "it's a big step in the right direction" camp. I can feel a lot more detail coming from the tyres and with stronger FFB information across the board (certainly under braking and cornering), there's plenty of latitude to fine-tune for personal preferences too. Good work!

Graham Hawkins
07-09-2012, 11:35
If you are gentle on the brakes to avoid locking the FFB is nice IMO, certainly an improvement.

The brake locking/pulling issue does not only happen when cornering for me though as some people state. If I drive in a straight line and slam the brakes on it pulls. If you do it without holding the wheel it spins, but interestingly the car does not tend to waver from a straight line.

I find 65 is a nice weight for me in most things.

Umer Ahmad
07-09-2012, 12:13
also I had to change my downshifting behavior I use to downshift later (closer to the corner). With the new FFB I have to brake a little earlier and then do my first downshift (all prior to the turn in). In b296 just have to be a lot smoother about the whole process otherwise I get that little jolt/tug/knock telling me "you're doing it wrong dummy" in a gentle-reminder kind of way.

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 12:25
I find 65 is a nice weight for me in most things.
I'm on 65 now actually with the CSW, so interesting/good that the G27 and CSW are not far off in terms of mapping the option to strength.

Riccardo De Rosa
07-09-2012, 12:32
Ok I tried a couple of cars now. Overall I really like the direction the FFB has gone. :)

Formula A has a very strong steering resistance now which also causes alot of oscillation for me. The effects are awesome though.
Formula Rookie on the other hands feels pretty much perfect except for the weak braking feedback.
Formula B has slightly too strong steering resistance for me. Effects feel top notch though.. Braking is alot of fun with this car now. :)

Bac Mono has slightly too light steering resistance for me now but very good braking feedback. ( Possibly even too much info ? )
Procar has pretty good steering resistance, however the effects seem all a bit subdued.
X4 steering resistance seems about right to me. Effects slightly weak, that wheel going light thing at the end of a braking zone feels a bit overdone.
Pagani Huayra has pretty good steering resistance now, the effects are a bit too strong, too much pulling under braking etc

So yeah in general those wheel pulling under braking and wheel going light effects are a bit too much right now.
Something inbetween what we had before and now would be perfect for me i think.
Overall i think i need to put FFB strength even a bit lower than the default 75% now.. especially when driving the Fa.

Perfect! The same feeling!

Michael Steiner
07-09-2012, 12:39
I observed some strange effect of the new ffb system. I was driving a few laps with M1 on nonMonaco.

This is the strage effect:
-Lets say your driving down to Mirabeau (map here (http://www.f1wolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/circuit_monaco.jpg))
-Before braking steer to the left a bit.
-When braking harder you'll feel that the wheel turns left automatically.

I'm not sure if this is a bug, or if this behaviour is realistic!? IMHO it feels wrong -Especially because the force of the auto-steering is quite strong.

Genius69
07-09-2012, 12:42
Perfect! The same feeling!
Same feelings for what concerns the Formula (only tested the last build 296) and that is a little too FFB that I had to lower to 50% instead of 85% and for the purposes I find them a little subdued perhaps due to the fact too much resistance of the steering wheel when cornering.

ermo
07-09-2012, 14:23
@AndyG:

In general, I like the direction you've taken with the FFB. I'm getting a more intuitive feel for what the car is doing, which is great.

Is there any chance that you could link us up* with the values in the current (b296) default FFB?

I ask because I'd like to see if it is possible to use the gaussian drag setting to dampen/smooth out the harsh/strong-ish 'jolt' when the rear tyres on the R500 transition from slide to grip? As it is now, the wheel is fairly light during the slide but when the do tyres grip, the FFB firms up quite fast, like someone is throwing a switch from low -> high? I'd like to see if I could perhaps tweak the response to be more continuous and gradual. Currently I'm using a force of 83/83 (strength/tyre force), which might be a little too high. 75/75 seems a little too low for my tastes. With 83/83, the FFB meter rarely hits the top or the bottom of the frame, which I take to mean that it isn't clipping?

*: Are default tweaker values embedded in a .BFF archive or are they shipped with each build as plain XML files? Would it be possible/feasible to write a set of files called, say, FFBTweaker-<car>-b<build-id>.XML to the %MYDOCUMENTS%/CARS/FFB/ folder if the user provides a cmdline switch called, say, '--exportffb' to the pCARS executable? This would conceivably cut down on the manual labour associated with posting the XML files here and make it easier for the community to use the Lucas' FFBTweakerTool with each build?

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 14:27
I'm not sure I follow completely, but there are (currently) no car specific internal defaults, just one global tweaker file (which is part of a BFF). I'll post the latest defaults soon, I just want to get as much "neutral" feedback as possible before doing that. It won't be a big surprise to anybody who is using the FFB tweaker threads though.

Ruggo
07-09-2012, 14:44
Ermo, I understand to a point what you are saying, but sometimes the transition from slide to grip is a jolt, especially if you have to much steering wound on. Obviously the worst case scenario is when you get overcorrection, which can have your car see sawing. Not having a shot at your driving :). If the transition was always a jolt for everyone in that car, then I'd agree that there could be a problem. I can't comment on that car yet, as I haven't driven it with the latest build.

ermo
07-09-2012, 14:48
I'm not sure I follow completely, but there are (currently) no car specific internal defaults, just one global tweaker file (which is part of a BFF). I'll post the latest defaults soon, I just want to get as much "neutral" feedback as possible before doing that. It won't be a big surprise to anybody who is using the FFB tweaker threads though.

Ok, got it.

Then I'm suggesting dumping a file called 'FFBTweaker-global_defaults-b<buildid>.XML' with the --exportffb switch.

The other part of the suggestion had to do with writing out the correct filenames for each car-specific FFBTweaker file automatically, even if they all end up containing the same values as the global FFBTweaker file. Does that make sense?

ermo
07-09-2012, 14:56
Ermo, I understand to a point what you are saying, but sometimes the transition from slide to grip is a jolt, especially if you have to much steering wound on. Obviously the worst case scenario is when you get overcorrection, which can have your car see sawing. Not having a shot at your driving :). If the transition was always a jolt for everyone in that car, then I'd agree that there could be a problem. I can't comment on that car yet, as I haven't driven it with the latest build.

If you'd seen me drive the R500 in-game, you would know that I wouldn't have a problem with you taking friendly pot-shots at my (lack of) driving skills! :D

But I get what you are saying and I get that there could be all sorts of variables here, including my skills, car setup, tyre parameters, the tyre model itself, FFB, weight transfer etc.

My point is that I'd like the game/sim to help me understand what the correct steering/throttle correction is, now that I don't have my inner ear and bum accelerometer to guide me. In Thomaso's thread, I posted a video of BenC taking the R500 for a spin on the Top Gear track and pointed out how it didn't look as if the car was actively trying to kill him and that it looked quite progressive in its responses.

EDIT: Note that my rF + RealFeel drive with the R500 felt nicely progressive and intuitive when catching slides and regaining grip, and I'd like to see if I could approximate this feeling with pCARS somehow.

EDIT2: I'm not saying that all slides in the R500 are uncatchable -- far from it -- just that I'm sometimes caught by surprise at how the R500 seems to literally snap at me without me understanding quite why. It happens particularly often during transitions where I'm sliding with a low alpha and then switch to the opposite direction, e.g. Anhalt in the first left -> looong right hander after the main straight.

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 14:58
Ok, got it.

Then I'm suggesting dumping a file called 'FFBTweaker-global_defaults-b<buildid>.XML' with the --exportffb switch.

The other part of the suggestion had to do with writing out the correct filenames for each car-specific FFBTweaker file automatically, even if they all end up containing the same values as the global FFBTweaker file. Does that make sense?
It makes sense yes, thanks. I'm not seeing a significant ROI though - if I post the defaults XML file (which I will soon), then this is enough for those people adept/technical enough to be tweaking the parameters imo.

gogoger
07-09-2012, 15:00
Good advice Umer. Stating the obvious really but what Joni describes isn't how it's supposed to feel, so something is wrong on his system (so many variables on PC unfortunately so we'll always hit these kind of issues).

being new to ffb thread and not much to contribute as keyboarder, just read Brainbug's suggestion to get sth like a "FFB hardware standard settings manual", iiuic.

--> what Umer wrote is (as a conclusion from my bystander pov) not that obvious for everybody.. so a sticky thread with such a manual/explanation/recommendation would maybe help ppl a lot to prevent strange experiences and some (repetitive) confusion/misunderstanding.. just saying

5 :)


edit:
oops ninja'd :p

Ruggo
07-09-2012, 15:07
If you'd seen me drive the R500 in-game, you would know that I wouldn't have a problem with you taking friendly pot-shots at my (lack of) driving skills! :D

But I get what you are saying and I get that there could be all sorts of variables here, including my skills, car setup, tyre parameters, the tyre model itself, FFB, weight transfer etc.

My point is that I'd like the game/sim to help me understand what the correct steering/throttle correction is, now that I don't have my inner ear and bum accelerometer to guide me. In Thomaso's thread, I posted a video of BenC taking the R500 for a spin on the Top Gear track and pointed out how it didn't look as if the car was actively trying to kill him and that it looked quite progressive in its responses.

EDIT: Note that my rF + RealFeel drive with the R500 felt nicely progressive and intuitive when catching slides and regaining grip, and I'd like to see if I could approximate this feeling with pCARS somehow.


http://youtu.be/XDeIit_v1VY
It all depends on the driver compadre.

gogoger
07-09-2012, 15:08
if I post the defaults XML file (which I will soon), then this is enough for those people adept/technical enough to be tweaking the parameters imo.

ok, if the less technical guys get good new ffb exp. with their standard/unaltered hardware settings...
maybe some changed them without really knowing those "obvious" details it'd need now with new ffb.. so some sticky/manual/guide might make them aware hence ninja "bad" experience.. for the record

ermo
07-09-2012, 15:16
It all depends on the driver compadre.

That slide looks pretty progressive to me! :D

Cold tyres + throttle oversteer = Meet the barrier. Priceless! ;)

(do check my EDIT2 above)

... and that's about as OT as I'm going to go in this thread.

ibby
07-09-2012, 15:19
Come on ermo, i think you know best about the problems between grip-slide-grip in the current tyre model.. That's just what you're feeling through the ffb now too. ;)

ermo
07-09-2012, 15:28
Come on ermo, i think you know best about the problems between grip-slide-grip in the current tyre model.. That's just what you're feeling through the ffb now too. ;)

Well, see, that's the question, isn't it? Has the FFB become so pure that all I feel is the tyre model? Or is it because my G27 wheel has that drop in force around Top Dead Center? Given how AndyG and AJ's FFB settings in b296 have improved my driving experience, I'm not sure that I should just pin it all on the tyre model at this point...

Of course, if either AndyG or AJ chimes in and chalks it up to the tyre model after all, then I'll be happy to shut up about it! ;)

Andy Garton
07-09-2012, 15:49
It's impossible to say for sure at this point, but we do know there are weaknesses in the current tyre model which the new model fixes, so with the current FFB being a pretty accurate measure of what's going on with the tyres, there should be a nice improvement to come in that crucial grip-slide-grip area.

SnowPEA
07-09-2012, 15:49
New FFB feels good. Alot more feeling in the wheel. My only complaint is that the G27 has a 1 inch gap in the middle before the force feed back kicks in. I think it has something to do with the weight transfer FFB. It makes me a sad snow pea. But other then that issue everything else feels pretty good.

Alejandro Gorgal
07-09-2012, 15:56
New FFB feels good. Alot more feeling in the wheel. My only complaint is that the G27 has a 1 inch gap in the middle before the force feed back kicks in. I think it has something to do with the weight transfer FFB. It makes me a sad snow pea. But other then that issue everything else feels pretty good.

That's mostly a hardware issue related to the way the FFB on this wheel works, it can be fixed (up to a point) in the Logitech Profiler by setting the overall FFB force to something around the 107-111% range. Be aware the the higher this value the more chances you'll get wobbling in straight line.

Umer Ahmad
07-09-2012, 15:58
--> what Umer wrote is (as a conclusion from my bystander pov) not that obvious for everybody.. so a sticky thread with such a manual/explanation/recommendation would maybe help ppl a lot to prevent strange experiences and some (repetitive) confusion/misunderstanding.. just saying

If you are a gamepad/keyboard player, now you can seriously considered purchasing a consumer-grade FFB wheel with this build. Even a 2nd-hand G25/G27 will feel good in pCARS now.

Sascha Kaymer
07-09-2012, 16:01
I really like the new FFB! You feel every bump, you feel when the car understeers or oversteers and the overall feeling is much better! Great improvement :victorious:

Oliver Rademacher
07-09-2012, 16:05
...thats what im asking/waitin for !!! Great FFB !!!

Christiaan van Beilen
07-09-2012, 16:12
It's impossible to say for sure at this point, but we do know there are weaknesses in the current tyre model which the new model fixes, so with the current FFB being a pretty accurate measure of what's going on with the tyres, there should be a nice improvement to come in that crucial grip-slide-grip area.

How far is AJ with the new tyre model, Andy? Percentage wise I mean.

Graham Hawkins
07-09-2012, 16:13
I'm hoping that Andy et al, can work more magic with the G27 TDC issue, I'm sure it felt better in previous iterations of FFB a few builds ago now (round about when road noise made a brief appearance ?), with a smaller dead spot.

Not that I find it a huge problem now, I just guess it's something some people are more sensitive to, like low FPS, tearing, jittering etc..

Michael Steiner
07-09-2012, 16:17
I'm hoping that Andy et al, can work more magic with the G27 TDC issue, I'm sure it felt better in previous iterations of FFB a few builds ago now (round about when road noise made a brief appearance ?), with a smaller dead spot.

Not that I find it a huge problem now, I just guess it's something some people are more sensitive to, like low FPS, tearing, jittering etc..

G27 TDC issue? What is this?

Graham Hawkins
07-09-2012, 16:20
G27 TDC issue? What is this?
The small dead zone in the FFB around the centre mostly down to the design of the G27. Widely documented and even more widely discussed. ;)

rivaltr
07-09-2012, 16:22
I must say the ffb in this build is really really good with most cars. Especially the new bmw 1 procar and the bmw z4 feels really realistic imo.

ermo
07-09-2012, 16:24
G27 TDC issue? What is this?

TDC = Top Dead Centre (when you're going straight and your wheel is at 0 degrees).

ONT
07-09-2012, 16:33
I think the FFB is on the right track :cool:

Some cars loose all FFB to easy in turns (Bac Mono)

Michael Steiner
07-09-2012, 16:37
Thanks Graham and ermo.
But I don't understand why an small deadzone is a problem for a wheel?
A real steering wheel has no deadzone too!?
I think that I'd complain about a wheel which has a big deadzone near the middle.

hoodi4cars
07-09-2012, 16:41
It's a technical thing with the 2 motors of the G27, the way it's designed there just is this deadzone. It's a a bit annoying yeah, because you don't feel anything on straights for the most part.. But from what I've heard, belt-driven wheels have different problems

Graham Hawkins
07-09-2012, 16:43
Thanks Graham and ermo.
But I don't understand why an small deadzone is a problem for a wheel?
A real steering wheel has no deadzone too!?
I think that I'd complain about a wheel which has a big deadzone near the middle.

Not dead as far as steering input goes, just dead from a FFB viewpoint.
If you centre the G27 you feel no FFB vibration in that position.

It's not that bad on the G27 really if it were then the wheel would not be so popular, but it is there and can be annoying at times.

Umer Ahmad
07-09-2012, 16:47
Logitech supposedly did this to 'protect' the motors from heating/damage. They didn't want the motors battling each other constantly when the wheel was centered. So the motors shut-off when you're @ TDC

You can feel them re-engage when you move about 2-3 degrees either direction.

SnowPEA
07-09-2012, 16:47
I'm hoping that Andy et al, can work more magic with the G27 TDC issue, I'm sure it felt better in previous iterations of FFB a few builds ago now (round about when road noise made a brief appearance ?), with a smaller dead spot.

Not that I find it a huge problem now, I just guess it's something some people are more sensitive to, like low FPS, tearing, jittering etc..

Yeah it was nearly undetectable in the last few versions.

Michael Steiner
07-09-2012, 16:58
Not dead as far as steering input goes, just dead from a FFB viewpoint.
If you centre the G27 you feel no FFB vibration in that position.

It's not that bad on the G27 really if it were then the wheel would not be so popular, but it is there and can be annoying at times.

ok - now I understand the problem.
...never heard about this problem before!
Thanks for explanation again!

Roger Prynne
07-09-2012, 17:03
ok - now I understand the problem.
...never heard about this problem before!
Thanks for explanation again!
This problem has been around since the G25/27 was first produced

navorsky
07-09-2012, 17:08
The FFB feels amazing, much more responsive! I can actually tell when im about to lock up a wheel.... and actually prevent that from happening... its good.

ermo
07-09-2012, 18:04
Sooo ... some more impressions re. FFB and the R500:

It appears that FFB is now so good that I'm too slow for the default stiff-ish (?) front-end setup! :o

Taking the front ARB down a notch or two (40 N/m -> 35 or 30 N/m) and taking the front springs and dampers down a notch or two each allows for a slower and more manageable weight transfer for me. The FFB communicates the resulting front end roll very nicely, so I'm all good now. :a01:

ISTR that Casey mumbled something about the suspension on the Cats working better if the front end was allowed to roll a bit?

gogoger
07-09-2012, 18:13
If you are a gamepad/keyboard player, now you can seriously considered purchasing a consumer-grade FFB wheel with this build. Even a 2nd-hand G25/G27 will feel good in pCARS now.

no problem :) could u pls explain why it is so much better all of a sudden?
if it was steering column-related before, does that mean there was a simulation code for buckling/torsion of steering column and for losses in transmission in FFB,
which buffered FFB or made it more indirect on purpose?
What has technically brought this big change?
As I would have thought, in race cars there are very stiff and efficient steering transmissions and columns that transfer tire force almost directly into the steering wheel..

Emile
07-09-2012, 18:31
Just tested new build on my G27, there are good things and bad things. There is too much rattling but it will be easy to get rid of it with FFBTweak.

Umer Ahmad
07-09-2012, 19:21
no problem :) could u pls explain why it is so much better all of a sudden?
if it was steering column-related before, does that mean there was a simulation code for buckling/torsion of steering column and for losses in transmission in FFB,
which buffered FFB or made it more indirect on purpose?
What has technically brought this big change?

I'll speak in plain language because there are other technical threads (here (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?4868-A.J.-s-Thread-)&p=141317&viewfull=1#post141317) for example) that have much better details.

IMO, the variables were always there and just needed fine tuning with the help of the community. These (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?7806-Custom-FFB-Tweaking-Files-Post-Yours-Here) guys did a really good job.

About the physics, a very talented Shift modder at NoGrip ("JDougNY", wish he was here) said of the Madness Engine, "it can produce anything between 'ice racing' and 'stuck on rails', all the variables are there." I believe this is also the situation with FFB. It began with removal/reduction of the input lag and disabling of gamepad input filtering from Shift2 (thanks MarkW!). Then the community and SMS worked together to find a balance of FFB force variables and that was made default for everyone last night (what time did Tom go home?).

I feel confident saying that we have gone from a 2 to at least a 6 (on a ten point scale). No more dead/lifeless/confusing FFB dominated by a centering effect. The FFB is a real dimension of the game and you don't only have to "drive visually" anymore. The FFB is actually helping you drive like most other sims (to varying degrees of success).

Traditionally SMS software very much rewarded your CPU/GPU investments. Last night for the first time I really felt my G27 purchasing decision in 2010 was totally validated, with more validation to come soon/later. We still got work to do in order to reach "11", but FFB is nothing to apologize about anymore. This is why today I give my personal "Green Light" to any of the pCARS players to begin serious FFB-Wheel purchase planning. The software is now supporting this spending.

gogoger
07-09-2012, 19:41
I'll speak in plain language because there are other technical threads (here (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?4868-A.J.-s-Thread-)&p=141317&viewfull=1#post141317) for example) that have much better details.

IMO, the variables were always there and just needed fine tuning with the help of the community. These (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?7806-Custom-FFB-Tweaking-Files-Post-Yours-Here) guys did a really good job.

About the physics, a very talented Shift modder at NoGrip ("JDougNY", wish he was here) said of the Madness Engine, "it can produce anything between 'ice racing' and 'stuck on rails', all the variables are there." I believe this is also the situation with FFB. It began with removal/reduction of the input lag and disabling of gamepad input filtering from Shift2 (thanks MarkW!). Then the community and SMS worked together to find a balance of FFB force variables and that was made default for everyone last night (what time did Tom go home?).

I feel confident saying that we have gone from a 2 to at least a 6 (on a ten point scale). No more dead/lifeless/confusing FFB dominated by a centering effect. The FFB is a real dimension of the game and you don't only have to "drive visually" anymore. The FFB is actually helping you drive like most other sims (to varying degrees of success).

Traditionally SMS software very much rewarded your CPU/GPU investments. Last night for the first time I really felt my G27 purchasing decision in 2010 was totally validated, with more validation to come soon/later. We still got work to do in order to reach "11", but FFB is nothing to apologize about anymore. This is why today I give my personal "Green Light" to any of the pCARS players to begin serious FFB-Wheel purchase planning. The software is now supporting this spending.

ah ok, so i understand there wasn't sth like a "steering column" model stripped out of the code to put it on the tires. there were just some variables adjusted in the existing code.
so that means, it depends only on these variables settings, whether ppl call or sb experiences an FFB as "tire-related", "driver seat-related" or "steering-column-related" subjectively?

awesome that now it was adjusted fine.
what do u mean by "Traditionally SMS software very much rewarded your CPU/GPU investments." in this context?
i guess using an FFB wheel is most virtual racers' minimum standard anyways, so why should the new FFB alone make them buy one..

cheers

Umer Ahmad
07-09-2012, 19:55
Yes, from what I understand, just the existing variables were adjusted. No new forces were added/deleted although underlying forces are the subject of AJ's Seta Tyre Model (STM).

My quoted statement means that since 2009 (Shift1) the difference in "gaming experience" between a gamepad/keyboard vs FFB-Wheel was small, until last night. Now (IMO) the gaming experience has widened significantly in favor of the FFB-Wheel players. If gamepad players have money to spend to improve their gaming experience and their CPU/GPU are holding up ok, they can now think seriously about obtaining a popular FFB-wheel. The software will reward this decision.

You are correct, simmers already have these devices. The recommendation was aimed at keyboard/gamepad players that are still evaluating this investment. Having a decent FFB-Wheel just got significantly more valuable with b296. But it must be balanced with CPU, GPU, Speaker and Monitor/Display purchasing as well.

Kazoku
07-09-2012, 19:56
Just tested with my Fanatec CSR. Love the new settings. The steering feels a lot more connected.

gogoger
07-09-2012, 20:16
Yes, from what I understand, just the existing variables were adjusted. No new forces were added/deleted although underlying forces are the subject of AJ's Seta Tyre Model (STM).

My quoted statement means that since 2009 (Shift1) the difference in "gaming experience" between a gamepad/keyboard vs FFB-Wheel was small, until last night. Now (IMO) the gaming experience has widened significantly in favor of the FFB-Wheel players. If gamepad players have money to spend to improve their gaming experience and their CPU/GPU are holding up ok, they can now think seriously about obtaining a popular FFB-wheel. The software will reward this decision.

You are correct, simmers already have these decives. The recommendation was aimed at keyboard/gamepad players that are still evaluating this investment. Having a decent FFB-Wheel just got significantly more valuable with b296. But it must be balanced with CPU, GPU, Speaker and Monitor/Display purchasing as well.

someone in here wanted to upgrade his wheel and sell me his DFGT.. been waiting for him for a while.
but i think i'd prefer DFP anyways as it is a bit smaller in diameter and rather similar to my drive fx. if anyone sells one.. pm me :)
otherwise think that keyboard can be an overlooked good testing device for some things, because

1) u always know what u experience is not down to FFB (wheel users often can't distinguish it from "physics" resp. setup etc.)
2) input is digital, i.e. full range, which imho may reveal some handling behaviour in some concerns quite well (f.ex. weight shift reaction etc.)

ofc a wheel is the most appropriate input device for a car racing game as long as cars got wheels :)

Emile
07-09-2012, 21:54
Besides the rattling I'm not satisfied with the pulling under braking. Even with light braking you can feel it quite well.

edit : Reducing Tyreforce helps a lot. I set it to 75 and most of rattling and excessive pulling are now gone !

Michael Pleym
07-09-2012, 22:01
Well, I'm one of those that have been very satisfied with the FFB since many builds ago. I know my GT3 RS v1 wheel is old technic by now, but even so I have enjoyed myself in every build since ~250 or so.

I still do, don't get me wrong. And I think I can feel some improvements on FFB in latest build (296). When not braking that is.

I haved tried Umers suggestion to decrease Tyre-force (is now down to 60) and it helps to some extent (thx Umer for the tip btw), but I don't feel connected to the front wheels when braking hard. It feels like they go over some very big bumbs or kerbs, with the wheel jolting out of control, when braking hard into corners.

Only tried with the open wheelers for now on my reference track (CH Short). Will try with some more tracks and cars.

gogoger
07-09-2012, 22:21
I haved tried Umers suggestion to decrease Tyre-force (is now down to 60) and it helps to some extent (thx Umer for the tip btw), but I don't feel connected to the front wheels when braking hard. It feels like they go over some very big bumbs or kerbs, with the wheel jolting out of control, when braking hard into corners.

sry only FFB-fencer, but reading ur post i thought are u maybe just locking front tires while braking hard?
AG posted sth about this locking (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9104-FFB-Notes-on-Build-296/page2#61) to be more controllable now, though him using load cell pedal makes it easier than for others, iiuic.
ok u probably have load cell too (?), but maybe another type, so that u can't avoid lock-up that well?

does it happen with ABS too? And with reduced brake pressure?
did u know this new FFB thread already?

maybe a little calibration issue, does this (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9111-The-Build-296-(Junior-)-discussion-thread/page6#212) help?

AdamVi
08-09-2012, 00:14
You guys need to really pay attention to the FFB/TYRE forces sliders with each car. I took the ZondaR to Wisconsin and could tell immediately that the FFB/TYRE needed to be reduced to about 60/60 because it was naturally heavier/tighter than the Rookie and the FFB effects were coming through much stronger.

Please experiment a little, especially if the FFB feels really "weird" or "bad" to you with this build. If the FFB overall feels too heavy/light, use the FFB slider. And if the effects are too noisy and your G27 feels like it's going to break when you're going over a kerb or braking, then reduce TYRE forces.

I need to experiment with more cars but there's no going back for me from this build.


I already posted some feedback in the Build Discussion Thread, but I thought I would add a little more detail based on some further testing (and this thread seems more appropriate too!).

As Umer pointed out, the FFB/Tire Force settings are suddenly very rewarding to experiment with as of this build (perhaps they always were, and I just never noticed!). From my experiments it seems that the "Force Feedback" will affect feedback strength globally (i.e. both general tire resistance, and the feeling over bumps/collisions/breaking/understeer/etc.) while the tire resistance only influences the friction/ tire weight. The net effect of this is that you can quite easily make the effects as strong & detailed, or subtle and basic as you like. I'm not sure if my impressions above are accurate in terms of what's actually happening behind the scenes (and I'm sure that its a lot less simple that that!), but regardless, with just those two sliders I'm able to get a much better feeling than I have ever previously achieved in the game (including testing out a number of different tweaker files). For reference, I've been using FFB:70/Tire:80 so far...


Occasionally I would hear a kerb but not feel anything through the wheel but this was only 20% of the time.

Interestingly, I noticed this far more in this build also, and I'm wondering if it's a side-effect of the more detailed feedback. My theory goes that the sounds are being generated based on materials, while the FFB is being generated based on the actual geometry. If that's accurate, it got me thinking that perhaps the sounds and the FFB should be far more "connected" than they are currently. In the same way that I've never really been a fan of FFB "effects", I was wondering if it wouldn't be possible to generate the sounds based on the actual tire physics and/or feedback (although I'm sure that they are at least partially already).

Anyways, that's probably getting a bit off topic... what I mostly wanted to reiterate from my previous post was that I love the new FFB and can't wait to see how the NTM can improve on it even further. Definitely a huge step forward in my opinon!

willy a
08-09-2012, 00:18
hi all , i use a t500 wheel and i must say i love the ffb and what the braking lockup concerned i use the pedals from the t500 tho works perfectly without abs . i hace clupsport pedals tho but dont need them at all .

Mad Al
08-09-2012, 00:30
Right, my thoughts and feelings...

My first thought was WTF!
(wheel as per sig, using Logitech mode, with the logi profiler set at 100% stregth (as I've always run it), FFB in game 75, tyre force 100 as per default (and the same as I've run it for months!)
Started in the Cat 300 and immediately upon entering the track the wheel started to oscillate, that died down over a few seconds. Pulling away slowly, the wheel went ape shit!.. went from very heavy to light and massive high frequency vibrations (which show up on the FFB meter if you drive at about 4 mph) then it seemed to go the wrong way, until it eventually started to point in the direction I actually wanted to go. Had a drive around Derby, and the issue is mostly about braking into old hairpin and mcleans, where the wheel is being banged from side to side (the FFB meter is going saturated + to saturated -) and it was that violent it actually tweaked my wrist (that I thought had just about recovered, again, but in the interests of testing I valiantly continued, injury not withstanding!). FFB was going up to saturation through the turns (but dropping down in understeer). I seemed to completely miss seeing any scrub feeling through the wheel (is it being added?)

I next tried the Lotus 78, much the same feeling (no oscillations at the start?), again, the FFB was saturating, I could feel drop off in weight through understeer, but again, way too much kicking under braking (I'm talking gentle here, I'm not into late and heavy braking) into old hairpin and mcleans.

At this point I tried messing with FFB strength, I tried dropping FFB weight, just made things lighter (surpise, suprise). Dropping Tyre force to get so I wasn't getting saturation and that was still kicking the crap out of me on the brakes.. ended up at 50 tyre force and 90 FFB (otherwise things were too light), that still gave saturation jolts under braking for old hairpin and mcleans.

Next (back at default 75 FFB and 100 TF) tried the Ariel 300, much better feedback as far as getting tyre scrub (I could actually feel it!) and was still feeling the drop in force on understeer (much more subtle).... but, was still having the crap kicked out of my wrists under braking for old hairpin and mcleans!!!!!!

(are you seeing a pattern here yet)

Right tried EVERY car at derby... basically they are all giving good feeling of drop off of force when in understeer, some give better feel of scrub that others (mostly those that aren't going completely saturated) and all seem to have horrible kick on the brakes over bumps (which is what I think is going on into old hairpin and mcleans).. I'd almost swear someone put in... force = force * brake%/10
Braking... when not kicking like a bastad, the fold over when understeering (locked brake) almost feels overdone? And a couple of cars (Pagani Hryuananauanauna, for definate) felt really drifty on the brakes when the tyres were cold (got better once warm.. might just have been me swapping cars and the Hairdrier has slighly sharp brakes?).

Overall, once you get over 20mph and away from the horrible low speed issue and if you aren't getting saturated feedback... it is probably a step in the right direction, but needs something done about issues with braking over bumps.

I'll have to try some more testing with the tweekers in place (but not tonight!)

Al

(PS, I won't sue for personal injury at work ;))

hoodi4cars
08-09-2012, 00:47
Hey, I previously posted about the new FFB and that I liked it quite much! Now I kind of have to take that back unfortunately. I do think it's an improvement, and I liked it because in the past days I've only been playing pCARS. However I just did a 1 hour race in Race 07 and then switched to pCARS. I posted this several times already, but I can't help to repeat how I think Race 07 (well, the GTR engine more precisely) is way way better. GTR feels like I am sitting in a 1000kg car, which tyres are actually driving on the tarmac. pCARS doesn't (The famous "floating" feel people were mentioned about the Shift series, and now pCARS as well).

Now - I know just stating this doesn't help anyone. And believe me, I don't like complaing myself - I want to enjoy this game! So I just took sime time and switched from Race 07 to pCARS over and over again, trying to find out what exactly the differences are, and why those two titles feel so completely different.

Now I think I found it out, and it's two factors:

1. The center spring force
In GTR, it's quite heavy, whereas in pCARS it's not. However, this can be changed, and the latest updates actually made the general center spring force heavier. That's not the problem - and that doesn't solve the issue. The key for the "connected" feeling seems to be the following: In GTR, the center spring force has subtle changes constantly, it gets stronger and lighter all the time. Dependant on a) speed and b) steering angle. Now in pCARS, it seems the center spring force remains static, besides of "special occasions", i.e. loss of grip in some kind or riding over kerbs, etc. But during the "normal" driving, it seems to be static. At least that's how I feel it. Turning the wheel for 20 degrees at 100 kmh feels the same as turning the wheel for 50 degrees at 100 khm, and this all still feels the same when changing the speed (expect for extreme values, like very low speed vs very high speed). But in general, the force remains the same. For me, I figure this must be the reason for the "not connected" feeling - because I don't seem to get feedback about the steering and speed. Again, I do in extreme situations, but only then. Whereas in GTR, you feel the spring force changing for every 5kmh you go faster or slower, or every 5 degrees more or less you turn the wheel. This gives me constant feedback from the road, and that's why I feel the road.

2. Car stability
GTR's cars feel stable - how I would expect a car that weights 1000 kilos to be. But in pCARS, it feels like there's some magical force pushing the car around. I think the cars get too easily in some kind of "swaying", you can best see this when loosing control over a car. It's nearly impossible in pCARS to save a car. There just seems to be some very powerful forces pushing and pulling at the tyres and wheel.. I'm sorry I can't really define this further..

I would be thankful if anyone who has GTR2 or some game of the Race 07 series could test this as well.

I know this is probably not a post anyone wants to read.. Trust me I try hard to enjoy pCARS, and I'm able to kind of trick me into thinking it's great - as long as I only play this game. But as soon as I take a ride in GTR, I kind of lose any motivation to play pCARS anymore.. :/

ZiggyUK
08-09-2012, 01:57
Logitech supposedly did this to 'protect' the motors from heating/damage. They didn't want the motors battling each other constantly when the wheel was centered. So the motors shut-off when you're @ TDC

You learn something new everyday on this Forum :)

Umer Ahmad
08-09-2012, 03:15
good feedback and comparison notes hoodi. We must also compare or FFB behavior to the top sims. Like I said, we're at about a "6" now but we were at "2" 24 hours ago. So still some room to go. Let's see what the coming months bring to the project.

Dan Blamey
08-09-2012, 05:57
I found the centering force actually working pretty well in this build. I just turned the tyre force down to 80 with default FFB and that seemed to bring out more subtlety.

could_do_better
08-09-2012, 08:33
For me the subtle forces are a little weak understeer in particular, but also engine revs, brake judder, etc, compared to RACE07. try revving the engine while stationary, the in hood cam there is quite a buit of visual movement but little FFB.

I remember reading an article from Logitech, that said the FFB strength in the Logitech profiler is non-linear. i.e. Strength >100% has more effect on small forces than large. I've done a little experimenting with increasing the profiler strength to 110% and lowering the game FFB strength, and i think the understeer drop off it is better but something is also lost at the top. However I doubt this results in an ideal non-linear profile.

For what it is worth I think we need to squeeze up the dynamic range of the FFB, keep the same max output levels but increase the gain on the lower levels, then I think we'd be pretty much there. Stronger weak forces and same for strong forces.

Perhaps a mapping like the Accel, brake, clutch sensitivity would give the level of control I'm talking about.

@AndyG I suspect it would be quite easy for you to try this on an internal test as the Sensitivity(output,sensitivity) function could be called just before the FFB value is sent to the wheel driver

ermo
08-09-2012, 11:45
1. The center spring force
In GTR, it's quite heavy, whereas in pCARS it's not. However, this can be changed, and the latest updates actually made the general center spring force heavier. That's not the problem - and that doesn't solve the issue. The key for the "connected" feeling seems to be the following: In GTR, the center spring force has subtle changes constantly, it gets stronger and lighter all the time. Dependant on a) speed and b) steering angle. Now in pCARS, it seems the center spring force remains static, besides of "special occasions", i.e. loss of grip in some kind or riding over kerbs, etc. But during the "normal" driving, it seems to be static. At least that's how I feel it. Turning the wheel for 20 degrees at 100 kmh feels the same as turning the wheel for 50 degrees at 100 khm, and this all still feels the same when changing the speed (expect for extreme values, like very low speed vs very high speed). But in general, the force remains the same. For me, I figure this must be the reason for the "not connected" feeling - because I don't seem to get feedback about the steering and speed. Again, I do in extreme situations, but only then. Whereas in GTR, you feel the spring force changing for every 5kmh you go faster or slower, or every 5 degrees more or less you turn the wheel. This gives me constant feedback from the road, and that's why I feel the road.


This description matches my rF + RealFeel experience. Thanks for articulating it so well. :cool:



2. Car stability
GTR's cars feel stable - how I would expect a car that weights 1000 kilos to be. But in pCARS, it feels like there's some magical force pushing the car around. I think the cars get too easily in some kind of "swaying", you can best see this when loosing control over a car. It's nearly impossible in pCARS to save a car. There just seems to be some very powerful forces pushing and pulling at the tyres and wheel.. I'm sorry I can't really define this further..


FYI, this reminds me that AJ noted in one of his posts that the current model tends to take off-center 'sets', which could very well be what you describe. And yes, once you start swaying, it's like a pendulum that gets an extra push at each transition in direction, and it can be a little tricky to get it back under control. It feels sort of like the loaded tyres compress and 'charge up' and suddenly release this charged up energy almost in a burst of sorts? Again, thanks for articulating this as it is something I can relate to as well.

With the R500, I found that softening up the front end helps me anticipate these 'sets' better and make corrections before they become too violent.

Which cars did you drive, btw.?

ermo
08-09-2012, 12:11
Besides the rattling I'm not satisfied with the pulling under braking. Even with light braking you can feel it quite well.

edit : Reducing Tyreforce helps a lot. I set it to 75 and most of rattling and excessive pulling are now gone !

Logitech G2x users appear to be happy around 75-80% Tyre Force, it would seem...

Which FFB strength setting did you end up with? 80FFB/80TF here FWIW.

Magik
08-09-2012, 16:12
Just ran some tests and this strong pulling if the wheel under breaking exist even when i dont lock my wheels.
Also understeering when turning my too much is weird. Instead of loosing some weight its like with small small overturning ffb force just switch off. After small correction (centering wheel) the tyres catch more grip and weight suddenly goes normal.
So through longer corners it feels like ffb is switchin off/on all the time.
On plus side with new settings i can feel surface bumps better but overall its kinda messy for me.

Emile
08-09-2012, 16:14
Logitech G2x users appear to be happy around 75-80% Tyre Force, it would seem...

Which FFB strength setting did you end up with? 80FFB/80TF here FWIW.

Problem is I can't find a good global value, some cars will be ok at 80 others need 60. But when decreasing too much it'n not good either although rattling and pulling are gone.

So I started a tweaker file to help with this here (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?7806-Custom-FFB-Tweaking-Files-Post-Yours-Here&p=239208&viewfull=1#post239208), writing only the parameters you want to change (so it is still very close to default FFB values even though we don't have them)

Paul2448
08-09-2012, 17:09
Overall, it feels great for me on my Driving Force GT. Just increased force feedback to max based on personal preference, and had to mess with the brake deadzone a bit due to my brake pedal being a little screwy.

Oliver Rademacher
08-09-2012, 20:22
Pls, pls, pls DONT change it !

LOVE it - now i can use 400 settings with absolutely fine reallife (or live?!)
feeling -amazing steering behaviour!!!
In combination with the TH8RS and 75% Feedback onehandwheeler...:a44:

Or of course leave the possibility to use it also, after next update...

Great FFB!!!

Best regards, the one who cant speak english and top the best ^^

lollygag
08-09-2012, 20:55
- because the FFB is now driven primarily from the tyres, when you lock the wheels under braking there is quite a strong effect. You'll probably find this odd (or crap) initially, but give it a chance - you really shouldn't be locking up the tyres anyway so it's worth working on your brake modulation and/or brake pressure/balance setup to ensure it doesn't happen. I actually think the force effect is a good guide here - it may not be 100% true to reality (I'll regret writing that probably), but it does help "fill in the blanks" of the seat of the pants feedback missing in a sim compared to the real world.


At first I thought No Trucking Way... but then I Quickly thought.. Trucking Way.


OMG this feels unreal now.. I only recently got out of PS mode for the new Fanatec FW and drivers on my CSRE.. and now this!

Remco Van Dijk
08-09-2012, 21:04
At first I thought No Trucking Way... but then I Quickly thought.. Trucking Way.


OMG this feels unreal now.. I only recently got out of PS mode for the new Fanatec FW and drivers on my CSRE.. and now this!
Maybe you could add a smiley or two to indicate whether it's positive or negative what you wrote? I'm confused :)

GAT_Montana
08-09-2012, 21:07
Its impossible to make it right for everybody...thats a fact. But dont worry, its far from final atm.

I would like as it is,if the pull effect wouldnt appear. Also with the new files from Andy G. the pull effect if I break into the turn is there. Better than before, but still to much. As long as I break before the turn and dont turn the wheel to much, it works. (i use zhis combination of tireforce and additional effects.

Br, Andy

Ninja'd by the Oranjes...Damn...

Magik
08-09-2012, 21:14
What new files?

Andy Garton
08-09-2012, 21:31
Remco can you edit the swearing out please? I'm on my phone only and it's tricky!

ermo
08-09-2012, 21:38
Maybe it's just me being too doe-eyed, but aren't lollygag's comments positive in the 'OMG this is effing crazy good!' kind of way?

GTWelsh
08-09-2012, 21:42
Maybe it's just me being too doe-eyed, but aren't lollygag's comments positive in the 'OMG this is effing crazy good!' kind of way?

Possible, glass half full or half empty kind of situation, depends on how you look at it.

Remco Van Dijk
08-09-2012, 21:56
Maybe it's just me being too doe-eyed, but aren't lollygag's comments positive in the 'OMG this is effing crazy good!' kind of way?
On second re-read, I think you're right. Modified my answer :)

Going to *beep* the swearing anyway :)

lollygag
08-09-2012, 22:56
Yea sorry to cause so much drama.. I'm just a mouthy american. But yea I'm amazed at how the ffb feels now after just a few fast laps and bettering my record @ CHS.

and of course if I didnt like it I would never come and slander with profanity about it.. But out of joy I figured it was acceptable.

ermo
08-09-2012, 23:02
BTW, just tried Emile's modified G2x FFBTweaker settings (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?7806-Custom-FFB-Tweaking-Files-Post-Yours-Here&p=239208&viewfull=1#post239208). They're pretty good, so I encourage fellow G2x users to give them a shot. :cool:

gogoger
08-09-2012, 23:03
@lollygag
don't worry it's not you, it's just a litte more care because of some troll encounters before :)
nice that u give positive feedback!

btw I'm on a keyboard and guess handling changed there too ;)

YoLolo69
08-09-2012, 23:22
I gonna try some tweaking files around here like the Emile's one as I can't find any good feeling right now. I lost too many feedbacks from my G25, and had to set FFB to 95% like before this build to retrieve the same forces only for some effects. Mainly is too light, in curve no FFB at all or very few, nothing on straight, no weight like if I was driving a remote controlled toy, sometimes a chock (wall, kerbs, etc.) do something and more often strictly nothing (seems random), etc. Tested with a lot of different cars. I rebooted several times, changed all settings, etc. my wheel is OK for other racing sims so I guess it's tweak time for pCARS ;)

To end on a positive note I'm happy with the feeling when you lost grip, even if I feel it's too exaggerate. So this new feeling is welcome, and now I would like to retrieve others ones I had before ;)

Edit: Ok, tried Emile tweaking file. It was difficult to judge as a real FFB bug arrived right after copying the XML in my FFB directory and restart of the game: The wheel was "heavy" and nearly difficult to turn. I was happy in one side to retrieve some car weight I lost with the new build and in other hand I was thinking: "Emile, you're kind of extremist here!" ;). So in Controls I goes from 95 to 85 and next lap was like driving a bicycle, too light like before the tweaking file, so I get back to 95% and next lap was if I was driving a bicycle with larger wheel... So the heavy wheel from the first test was a bug. It look like a constant force was applied to the wheel, and the fact I touched the FFB % slider fixed the bug. For me, something is not well initialized when the game start, and when you enter in the Controls menu and touch this slidder, it's initialized correctly. Look like an uninitialized global, sometimes good, and sometimes with a wrong value.

Anyway, the new tweaking from Emile is better for me. I think it's still too light even with FFB 100% / Tires 100% I don' retrieve what I had previously (or in other sims)...

BTW: my Logitech settings are the regular ones :107, 0 for others and Allow Game blahblah ;)

BazzaLB
09-09-2012, 09:39
Removed all my banter and decided to just add "like" to hoodi4cars post instead. He summed my feelings up nicely re comparing pCars ffb to other sims ( in my case rf2 and GSC) versus comparing pCars to itself fom one build to the next.

0dyssey
09-09-2012, 12:16
I'm getting extreme wheel shaking/shuddering on my F430 with the Formula A car while stationary. Other cars tested seem to be fine. I used to get this only on the straights in previous builds.
Is this a wheel issue or have I derped a setting somewhere?

Anyone else experienced this?

stephenb
09-09-2012, 13:03
Racer V8 @ CHGP, default game settings latest firmware and drivers for wheel (750b/v140). It's certainly progressed a long way from when I first signed up. Obviously only playing the monthly builds change come more signifcantly but with the latest build I can't say there's anything I don't really like. The first positive is that all the bugs are gone, I think that was the case with the last build to but I was having some seperate issues with my wheel (left shifter paddle swtich is broken). The wheel weight is good, excellent use of the vibration motors in the wheel rim when hitting curbs. I like the way the wheel goes light when cresting a rise or in understeer situations. Correcting the car comes naturally and is instinctive. Overall detail isn't quite as good as Rfactor 2, you can really feel every little bump, crack, sufrace change in the pavement, but nothings perfect. Feels a step above iracing now, which seems lifeless in comparison.

Overall the games comming along great :up:

Dan Blamey
09-09-2012, 13:31
Racer V8 @ CHGP, default game settings latest firmware and drivers for wheel (750b/v140). It's certainly progressed a long way from when I first signed up. Obviously only playing the monthly builds change come more signifcantly but with the latest build I can't say there's anything I don't really like. The first positive is that all the bugs are gone, I think that was the case with the last build to but I was having some seperate issues with my wheel (left shifter paddle swtich is broken). The wheel weight is good, excellent use of the vibration motors in the wheel rim when hitting curbs. I like the way the wheel goes light when cresting a rise or in understeer situations. Correcting the car comes naturally and is instinctive. Overall detail isn't quite as good as Rfactor 2, you can really feel every little bump, crack, sufrace change in the pavement, but nothings perfect. Feels a step above iracing now, which seems lifeless in comparison.

Overall the games comming along great :up:

One thing we have to remember with pCARS is that a lot of the little bumps and cracks haven't actually been detailed in the tracks yet. Connecticut Hill is a good example of where the bumps have had some attention, but for the others a smooth-ish track will always feel smooth until the bumps have been added (correct me if rF2 also hasn't had this detail added, but it sounds like it has).

GAT_Montana
09-09-2012, 19:15
@lollygag
don't worry it's not you, it's just a litte more care because of some troll encounters before :)
nice that u give positive feedback!

btw I'm on a keyboard and guess handling changed there too ;)

You know what people say? To play a racing game with a keyboard is like to play a first person shooter with an racing wheel :)

Ive tried several ffb tweaks know and have to say I realy like all those additional "unrealistic" effects. Especially if I break hard and the wheel shakes. Its like to go to cinema and watch an action movie.I wouldnt expect that everything works there as it would be in real life, otherwise Bruce Willis would die hard just one time... :)

May be that pCARS should be the first racing game what offers different FF styles like different skill levels: realistic-arcade-action

Br, Andy

Ernie
10-09-2012, 08:43
I just want to say, that i love the new FFB. Definitively a great step in the right direction. :a31:

I took the 2 new BMW's out for a ride on CH and it felt fantastic. I'm actually using the CSP-profile with my GT3RSv2 and default FFB settings (strength, tyre force, etc.).
For my personal taste the wheel has the right weight and centering force. The FFB during braking is violent but i really like the effect. The shaking while tyres search for grip under braking is a new and helpful effect, which most of the other sims don't have.

I only miss some kind of road feel. It feels too smooth and a little bit lifeless, while driving on a straight. You should feel all the little cracks and small bumps. But i know the tracks are not final and mostly missing ("feelable") microbumps.

And i partially agree with hoodi4cars (Link (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?9104-FFB-Notes-on-Build-296&p=238806&viewfull=1#post238806)) that the steering force should more depend on the actual speed of the car. (Stronger centering forces in highspeed corners and lower centering forces while driving slow)

But overall ...... well made FFB tweaks, SMS. :a04:

Tiago Fortuna
10-09-2012, 09:55
The lack of feel while going straight might be due to softer suspension, speed or track not yet optimized AFAIK.

Some cars do have some straight line effects like the BAC Mono on CHGP (as example)

STP GoGoGo
10-09-2012, 10:38
May I ask how it should look like if it would work correctly?

Acceleration: you loose weight (force) on the steering wheel as long as the car accelerates.
Brake: weight on the steering wheel should increase as long as you have grip. If you loose grip the weight should decrease, the wheel starts rumble.

Correct?


WhAt ?

(Acceleration: you loose weight (force) on the steering wheel as long as the car accelerates) ??????????



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=GvKHP8NmE0Y



NOT SO!

not how the real world works.

To the Dev's there is all kinds of good data in this video.


This guy has to yank the car to drift, the amount of grip when he yanks the car should tell you guys something.
this is no race car it has a license plate it may have speed parts and other store bought items.
If you you tube ring taxi (just beefy break pads other wise stock)you will see more street cars doing things with lots of speed and lots of grip.

I feel people seem to think race cars are unstable at all times and run on a fine line of grip.
I have owned many cars from USA muscle (2) Dodge 440's to a Datsun 280zx and now a Ford Mustang with a smattering of normal cars to boot.
Probable raced all of them on all manner of roads and conditions sand,rain,snow,mud and dirt.
most all have been sure footed and the Dodge 440's (X2) would get sideways almost with a drop of a hat.
but all of them had fairly good grip if you watched your lead foot.
I feel most of the cars are like I am driving on glass or ice.
I know its WIP but I hope the Dev's lean a little more to the grip/drift stuff.
Save the glass or ice for the F1 when you have you foot in the floor board. (F1 off the throttle is very grippy).
real life grip might be boring but its real.
cheers all:

C3PO
10-09-2012, 11:00
The Citroen I am driving in France has zero feedback at the wheel and the steering is lighter than a knat's nether region. Some cars are just crap at the wheel, we shouldn't forget that.

STP GoGoGo
10-09-2012, 17:54
Citroen not in our title.

C3PO
10-09-2012, 17:57
Thank God.

Andy Garton
10-09-2012, 18:06
There goes our 30 car Citroen licensing deal.

Bruno Alexandre
10-09-2012, 18:09
There goes our 30 car Citroen licensing deal.

Not my DS3 !!!!!!!!!

Remco Van Dijk
10-09-2012, 18:42
There goes our 30 car Citroen licensing deal.
200BHP 2CV FTW

Dominic Schoenberner
10-09-2012, 18:59
There goes our 30 car Citroen licensing deal.

1.1 Saxo from my Girlfriend? ;)

STP GoGoGo
10-09-2012, 21:08
Ring Taxi


street car with lots of grip with 4 people.

not so bumpy for the car steering people bounce a little on stock seats though.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1TFleSpMsc


here is a car trying to keep up with a street car (taxi)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMVSPUatC0&feature=related

FloF000
10-09-2012, 22:15
Finally I came home to my PC and can test the new FFB too.

First I want to mention that my FFB wheel is an oldtimer (to name it positive). The strength is still more or less ok, but I for sure do not have the subtle forces right.


... - because the FFB is now driven primarily from the tyres, ....
This is music in my ears! ;)

Now about my testing. I was running with several cars on the skidpad. I tried Rookie, Asano X4, Asano X11 and Caper Road, but mostly I drove the FB. Also the following tests are related to the FB.

First I run some circles, hold the radius constant and increased/decreased the speed. What I expect: With higher lateral acceleration the steering weight is getting higher.
=> this is actually happening, but the differences IMO is too small. I would give it a 5 of 10 points

Next test: I was running the circle again on constant speed and changed the steering input slowly to maximum. What I expect: To feel the peak point of the tire forces.
=> this was quite good. I felt the increase of steering force and if I overdo it, it is getting lighter again. For me a 8 of 10

Then I run the circle again with constant steering wheel angle and hit the throttle for 20% and went off again. Of course the car is getting wider on the throttle and narrow when releasing. I expected: To feel the longitudinal weight transfer on the steering wheel.
=> I did not really feel any change of steering weight. I expected just small changes. Maybe it is my wheel, which is not precise enough or maybe my expectations where to high. Maybe hard but 0 of 10 points.

Next test: Braking in the circle: I expected, that the inner wheel starts to loose grip and reaction forces on the steering wheel.
=> First of all, I do like the input from the brakes. Finally I can feel the threshold of the brakes! I found out, that the cars are very different here, which is reasonable to me. It depends on the crub radius of the car.
Actually I expected from the cars, to pull my wheel to the outside of the curve, but the FB and especially the Asano X4 are pulling into the curve. Do they have a negative scrub radius?
All in all, finally we have the input of the longitudinal tire forces! It moves in the right direction! Nevertheless, I still have some open questions in this point, therefore: 6 of 10 points.

I also tried the steering on standstill. I do think, that there is a bug. This standstill resistant just appears when pressing the brake. I think I read this already in this thread too. Moreover, I noticed, that the steering wheel moves to the position, where the brakes where applied at the first place. If I steer completely to the right, press the brakes and then move the steering wheel, the steering wheel always points to the very right position.
I expect more a elastic deformation and a slipping of the tire. The wheel always moves back the elastic deformation of the tire. If the tire reached the max. elastic deformation it starts to slip. If I release the wheel now it again just turns back the degrees of the elastic deformation.

On the track, the new FFB is definitely an enrichment, but still some way to go to be perfect!


PS: I am "proud" owner of 2 Citroen cars too. :rolleyes: A C1 with realfeel (no powersteer) and a C4 Coupe. No need to have them virtual. (but maybe the DS3 WRC !?)

logos
11-09-2012, 03:38
I tested Formula Rookie and BMW M1 ProCar at Bathurst (unfortunately haven't had time to test the other cars). Overall the FFB of the two cars has similar characteristics, so the comments below are valid for both of them.

- The tyres can be felt through FFB when sliding/locking, which is a good improvement over the previous defaults.

- There is not enough road feeling (road undulations, bumps, etc.). IMO Fz could improve this.

- The resistance of the steering wheel drops too abruptly when the tyres lose traction. I think this can be controlled with FxPhase, although it's quite difficult to find the right value, and probably would need individual setting for every vehicle. At least this is my impression from the FFB tweaking. I find built-in rack better suited for this, since the forces are run through the steering geometry of the car, so every vehicle feels natural under these conditions (no need for additional tweaking other than RackScale).

- The weight transfer is not well pronounced. Could be in some relation with the above note.

- The effect of locking tyres needs to be more subtle imo. It's too abrupt causing strong wheel rattling.

- During the turn-in phase the steering wheel pulls in the direction of the turn, which feels quite unintuitive. Could be caused by the pulling bug under braking, though.

- The understeer fade is too much and too sudden imo. Combined with the strong wheel rattling under braking and the pulling in direction of the turn, could result in an unintuitive and confusing experience in turns.

- The overall feeling is rather for unbalanced FFB - too strong forces under braking, and too weak at other conditions.

IMO, the previous default FFB (or even the built-in rack) combined with the tyre feeling of this set, could give better results. :)

Wheel: Fanatec GT3RSv2 + CSP(USB), FW750B, driver 140, Sen 900 (or off with 900 from driver), FF 100, Sho 0, Dri 2, ABS off, Lin 0, Dea 0, Spr off, Dpr off
In-game: CSR profile, all buttons and axes reassigned, calibrated to 900 deg., all deadzones 0, all sensitivities 50, speed sensitivity 0, damping 0, input filtering off, tyre force 100, FFB Strength 75

Riccardo De Rosa
11-09-2012, 07:05
For me the present FFB with default setting give me better feeling, a real feeling.

Some points are to improved, but surely this is the build with the best ffb.

FloF000
11-09-2012, 10:50
Yesterday I drove some more laps with the BMW Z4 and the Formula A.

The BMW Z4 is pulling quite extreme towards inward curve. The steering wheel forces when braking are higher than in the curve with maximum lateral acceleration. I doubt that this is in the right relation.

I also notived very odd behavior on both cars during standstill.
As already mentioned, there is the difference if you press the brakes or not. I was thinking about this again. I think it is partial ok that there is a difference. If you loosen the brakes, the tires can slightly roll, depending on the length of the scrub radius. The longer it is, the better they can roll. If you brake, than they can't roll anymore and the forces getting higher.

Nevertheless, very odd behavior happens, when you loosen the brakes. On both of this cars I had something like an anti-center spring in standstill.
I guess, all this standstill force wasn't focus of their work till now and overall it just has a minor importance. I just wanted to mention my experiences.

speed1
11-09-2012, 11:40
I guess the brake and resistance power are the result of the longitidunal axis. I do not know whether lat is already a reference magnitude here. As long the steering is centered and toe just is 0 what in most cases not will be if braking and slowing down because of the strain power, it is relatively ok. As soon as the steering/toe angle changed, the longitidunal axis changed itself in the angle. This causes that the wheels seems to turn in a direction while braking. The slip angle when brake is here improperly handled or has a bug.

The long and lat must form the reference magnitude and at the same time in the angle be captured to also diagonal (slip angle) forces correctly to capture and treat. I'm not sure whether it will work with Andrews new method. As I understood it he would like to divide three levels into segments ( subdivisions ). To the observations of this forces and angle there may be enough but wether it is useful for capturing/simulating a tire patch is going to show.

faceplant
11-09-2012, 12:30
Had a quick blast last night after not being on for ages.

New Firmware ( 750B ) for Fanatec gear seems nice with current build.

Genius69
11-09-2012, 13:33
I tested Formula Rookie and BMW M1 ProCar at Bathurst (unfortunately haven't had time to test the other cars). Overall the FFB of the two cars has similar characteristics, so the comments below are valid for both of them.

- The tyres can be felt through FFB when sliding/locking, which is a good improvement over the previous defaults.

- There is not enough road feeling (road undulations, bumps, etc.). IMO Fz could improve this.

- The resistance of the steering wheel drops too abruptly when the tyres lose traction. I think this can be controlled with FxPhase, although it's quite difficult to find the right value, and probably would need individual setting for every vehicle. At least this is my impression from the FFB tweaking. I find built-in rack better suited for this, since the forces are run through the steering geometry of the car, so every vehicle feels natural under these conditions (no need for additional tweaking other than RackScale).

- The weight transfer is not well pronounced. Could be in some relation with the above note.

- The effect of locking tyres needs to be more subtle imo. It's too abrupt causing strong wheel rattling.

- During the turn-in phase the steering wheel pulls in the direction of the turn, which feels quite unintuitive. Could be caused by the pulling bug under braking, though.

- The understeer fade is too much and too sudden imo. Combined with the strong wheel rattling under braking and the pulling in direction of the turn, could result in an unintuitive and confusing experience in turns.

- The overall feeling is rather for unbalanced FFB - too strong forces under braking, and too weak at other conditions.

IMO, the previous default FFB (or even the built-in rack) combined with the tyre feeling of this set, could give better results. :)
Wheel: Fanatec GT3RSv2 + CSP(USB), FW750B, driver 140, Sen 900 (or off with 900 from driver), FF 100, Sho 0, Dri 2, ABS off, Lin 0, Dea 0, Spr off, Dpr off
In-game: CSR profile, all buttons and axes reassigned, calibrated to 900 deg., all deadzones 0, all sensitivities 50, speed sensitivity 0, damping 0, input filtering off, tyre force 100, FFB Strength 75
Quote

Michael Pleym
11-09-2012, 18:58
I tested Formula Rookie and BMW M1 ProCar at Bathurst (unfortunately haven't had time to test the other cars). Overall the FFB of the two cars has similar characteristics, so the comments below are valid for both of them.

- The tyres can be felt through FFB when sliding/locking, which is a good improvement over the previous defaults.

- There is not enough road feeling (road undulations, bumps, etc.). IMO Fz could improve this.

- The resistance of the steering wheel drops too abruptly when the tyres lose traction. I think this can be controlled with FxPhase, although it's quite difficult to find the right value, and probably would need individual setting for every vehicle. At least this is my impression from the FFB tweaking. I find built-in rack better suited for this, since the forces are run through the steering geometry of the car, so every vehicle feels natural under these conditions (no need for additional tweaking other than RackScale).

- The weight transfer is not well pronounced. Could be in some relation with the above note.

- The effect of locking tyres needs to be more subtle imo. It's too abrupt causing strong wheel rattling.

- During the turn-in phase the steering wheel pulls in the direction of the turn, which feels quite unintuitive. Could be caused by the pulling bug under braking, though.

- The understeer fade is too much and too sudden imo. Combined with the strong wheel rattling under braking and the pulling in direction of the turn, could result in an unintuitive and confusing experience in turns.

- The overall feeling is rather for unbalanced FFB - too strong forces under braking, and too weak at other conditions.

IMO, the previous default FFB (or even the built-in rack) combined with the tyre feeling of this set, could give better results. :)

Wheel: Fanatec GT3RSv2 + CSP(USB), FW750B, driver 140, Sen 900 (or off with 900 from driver), FF 100, Sho 0, Dri 2, ABS off, Lin 0, Dea 0, Spr off, Dpr off
In-game: CSR profile, all buttons and axes reassigned, calibrated to 900 deg., all deadzones 0, all sensitivities 50, speed sensitivity 0, damping 0, input filtering off, tyre force 100, FFB Strength 75

This is my opinion too. It's like when I was younger and didn't afford to own other than old rusty cars. With bad and vibrating brake pads on the front wheels. :p

Tiago Fortuna
11-09-2012, 19:07
That was ABS v1... these young kids... :p

Are Leistad
11-09-2012, 19:27
Just cutting & pasting my brief FFB impression from the current builds thread (Tested: Caterham Seven Classic, Caterham SP/300.R and BAC Mono @ Derby GP) :

Whatever Andy did has improved the situation. Straight out of the box it was a bit brutal, with some rattling and knocking when rolling at less than walking speed. But apart from that it seemed to convey 'everything' better. I currently have the damping = 3 to 5, strength = 70 and tyre force = 90, which makes it very nice. Those may not be the best settings - will tweak further, also looking forward to seeing the 'secret' default FFB file...

logos
11-09-2012, 20:10
... also looking forward to seeing the 'secret' default FFB file...

Andy posted it yesterday in the first post of the FFB Tweaking thread: http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?6198-The-FFB-parameter-tweaking-thread&p=152830&viewfull=1#post152830 ;)

Are Leistad
11-09-2012, 20:11
^ Thanks, logos! Not easy to keep track of everything that happens around here :D

YoLolo69
11-09-2012, 20:24
I tested Formula Rookie and BMW M1 ProCar at Bathurst (unfortunately haven't had time to test the other cars). Overall the FFB of the two cars has similar characteristics, so the comments below are valid for both of them.

- The tyres can be felt through FFB when sliding/locking, which is a good improvement over the previous defaults.

- There is not enough road feeling (road undulations, bumps, etc.). IMO Fz could improve this.

- The resistance of the steering wheel drops too abruptly when the tyres lose traction. I think this can be controlled with FxPhase, although it's quite difficult to find the right value, and probably would need individual setting for every vehicle. At least this is my impression from the FFB tweaking. I find built-in rack better suited for this, since the forces are run through the steering geometry of the car, so every vehicle feels natural under these conditions (no need for additional tweaking other than RackScale).

- The weight transfer is not well pronounced. Could be in some relation with the above note.

- The effect of locking tyres needs to be more subtle imo. It's too abrupt causing strong wheel rattling.

- During the turn-in phase the steering wheel pulls in the direction of the turn, which feels quite unintuitive. Could be caused by the pulling bug under braking, though.

- The understeer fade is too much and too sudden imo. Combined with the strong wheel rattling under braking and the pulling in direction of the turn, could result in an unintuitive and confusing experience in turns.

- The overall feeling is rather for unbalanced FFB - too strong forces under braking, and too weak at other conditions.

IMO, the previous default FFB (or even the built-in rack) combined with the tyre feeling of this set, could give better results. :)

Wheel: Fanatec GT3RSv2 + CSP(USB), FW750B, driver 140, Sen 900 (or off with 900 from driver), FF 100, Sho 0, Dri 2, ABS off, Lin 0, Dea 0, Spr off, Dpr off
In-game: CSR profile, all buttons and axes reassigned, calibrated to 900 deg., all deadzones 0, all sensitivities 50, speed sensitivity 0, damping 0, input filtering off, tyre force 100, FFB Strength 75

Only one point which didn't match at all for me:my wheel is a G25 ;) Other lines could have been written by me if my English was better ;)

STP GoGoGo
12-09-2012, 03:12
Thank you SMS for fixing my favorite track.



the world have no clue of whats coming in 8 months.:a02:


FFB:cool: love the knocks more rumble for bumps:a21:


how about a audio cue system when motor simulates bumps have the rattle and rumble FFB ?

anyway Awesome Simulator:adoration:

C3PO
12-09-2012, 19:35
Done a fair bit of testing in two cars in this build to see what it was like. I tried the Palmer Jaguar JP-LM and the Formula A. It's very tricky to give a view because the results vary wildly from one to the other: I have no idea if this is the physics, the set up or the FFB code changes.

For me the Palmer Jaguar still massively lacks strength at the wheel and with this code I get very little feel from the road. I quite like the feel of the understeer with it going light when the car pushes on. I don't like the deadzone around the centre which is still discernable. Adding spring really helps. On a scale to ten it's a 4 for me with this car.

The Formula A though feels much better. There is little deadzone in the centre and I get better feedback from the road. The understeer effect is nicely done and the car feels responsive: it's better to drive that its counterpart in the demo of F1 2012. Overall 8/10.

Dominic Schoenberner
13-09-2012, 12:35
Dont know if reported, poorly dont have the time to read through the whole thread. But when im drive really slow, the FFB vibrates really heavy. logitech G27 here ;) (ingame-FFB at 100, it happens too with default 75) tested with M1 on Connecticut GP.

speed1
13-09-2012, 14:30
For me it not feels like I would expect it by such HQ staff ( SMS ). I expect very cheeky more. SMS have an ex professional driver on board, who should know better as well as Casey, Andy G., Andrew W. and co.

I'm waiting for andrews result. And to make that clear it is not only pCars. I find it so far apart from rfactor2 in the approach none of the available sims better. They are sometimes even more worse. And pCars is pre-alpha. It's still all open.

I would really like to know how Doug looks at and feels or what he expected from the FFB.

Umer Ahmad
13-09-2012, 14:40
Do you at least agree with majority of us that it is much better than previous month? No one said this final ffb.

speed1
13-09-2012, 15:12
No Sorry. I know it is not final and also hope it isn't.

edit: one of the missed feelings produced from : A = F/p - i don't know the english formula. Simplified tire patch formula.

A=Patch F=Force p=Pressure tire

Tire pressure/vertikal force dependet tire patch. In other words increase and decreaseing tire patch. Result friction based resistance variables. Dynamicly and progressive variables of force formation and forwarding to the steering geometrie.

Influence of Weight shift could also be captured and simplified with this forces. simplified example: Boady roll to the left - weight on left suspension - generating force on tire - tire on asphalt. Result increasing patch and with it the resistance on steering wheel.

Andrew should know this better.

speed1
14-09-2012, 09:45
Even if between the builds nothing has changed is the new build 301 somewhat better for me apart from the mentioned and wished effect as well as some little details. Some fundamental physical forces are more harmonious,clean and clear for me. Continuation in AJ's thread.

edit: relating to the FA

Michael Steiner
14-09-2012, 11:59
I just leave some feedback about the new ffb behavior. Here's my pros and cons:

pros

the overall feeling when racing ontrack
ffb effects are more belivable than before (in <B291)



cons

too strong forces when driving slower than 30km/h
sometimes unpredictable (and too strong) ffb effects when driving a long turn (example ConnHill)
when you need to recover a standing car the ffb forces are 10x too strong IMO. I slowly turn the wheel to prevent my wheel from breaking.
I don't like the "auto-steering on braking" behavior. The force is again too strong from my POV. (Try the M1 on nonMonaco)



Don't get me wrong, I like the development/progress of the ffb. But the problems I mentioned bother me. I set the ffb-setting to <50 to protect my wheel. But I know that probably these problems will persist until the new tire physics is ready. I'm also not sure which part of the problems are related to the tire physics, and which are related to the ffb-system.

Ernie
14-09-2012, 13:18
- The overall feeling is rather for unbalanced FFB - too strong forces under braking, and too weak at other conditions.

Wheel: Fanatec GT3RSv2 + CSP(USB), FW750B, driver 140, Sen 900 (or off with 900 from driver), FF 100, Sho 0, Dri 2, ABS off, Lin 0, Dea 0, Spr off, Dpr off
In-game: CSR profile, all buttons and axes reassigned, calibrated to 900 deg., all deadzones 0, all sensitivities 50, speed sensitivity 0, damping 0, input filtering off, tyre force 100, FFB Strength 75I'd suggest to set drift mode to off. Maybe you get the wrong impressions of countersteering forces in some situations.

Michael Steiner
14-09-2012, 16:09
I experienced a strong rattling with JPLM on Monterey when driving between 5 km/h and 25 km/h. The problem will probaly appear on other cars too.
After braking the rattling disappears. The rattling seems to intensify when the car just rolls.

Heres a video of this. You can see the ffb-force in the upper graph:



http://youtu.be/ndNPX14ZjVw

43000

logos
15-09-2012, 00:56
I'd suggest to set drift mode to off. Maybe you get the wrong impressions of countersteering forces in some situations.

My GT3RSv2 FFB feels too dampened and slow with drift mode turned off, using FW750B. I've compared the resistance of the wheel with various settings of Dri, Spr, Dpr, etc., between FW681 and FW750B. Drift mode 2 on FW750B felt like drift mode "off" in FW681, so I left it at Dri 2.

Before posting my previous notes on FFB, I tested pCars with Dri "off" to 3, Spr and Dpr -4 to +4 and "off", with similar results in the FFB behavior (no lagging forces caused by the FFB motors in drift mode, etc. :))

Fanatec also introduced a new setting "off" to Spr and Dpr, which I find to feel better in combination with Dri 2 on FW750B, compared to my previous settings in FW681 - Dri off (to 2), Spr = -2, Dpr = -2 in all tested games (rF + RealFeel, GSC 2012, nKP, VGP3, GTR2, GTL, pCars, etc.)

Ryzza5
16-09-2012, 07:31
Usually I turn the in-game FFB down from 75 to ~67 but left it as-is this time, and wow. The new FFB is epic for the small number of races I've run since (both Asano's and Caper Stock car road). I did note however that with stock car I had to turn the wheel more to get around the same corner, hopefully there's a car setup item for that I haven't seen yet. Driving the X4 around Grren Hell with all its bumps really means you have to hang on tight, but thanks to FFB you can quickly correct any mistakes.

I do however have the CSR Elite FF setting on about 40 which is roughly what I use for most games anyway.

Roger Prynne
16-09-2012, 13:35
Usually I turn the in-game FFB down from 75 to ~67 but left it as-is this time, and wow. The new FFB is epic for the small number of races I've run since (both Asano's and Caper Stock car road). I did note however that with stock car I had to turn the wheel more to get around the same corner, hopefully there's a car setup item for that I haven't seen yet. Driving the X4 around Grren Hell with all its bumps really means you have to hang on tight, but thanks to FFB you can quickly correct any mistakes.

I do however have the CSR Elite FF setting on about 40 which is roughly what I use for most games anyway.
Make the steering ratio faster in the car setup menu.

Leau
24-09-2012, 03:02
FFB for mostly cars is pretty good, since build 306 in addition to the grip, drive the bmw m1 is a pleasure :)
the prob is for all open wheel except formula rookie which is completely the opposite.

ffb to 75% is enough for all the cars i tested: bmw m1, z4, pagani, all the Caterham, palmer jaguar
(it could be higher for me but that's my feeling)

but for formula a, formula b, lotus 78, 98t Renault Turbo it is just undriveable... it's shaking pretty hard straight. if i let the wheel go, it's been back and forth to the bitter end
if i reduce ffb to 50% shaking are attenuated but also the feeling of the car's weight,bumps,curbs etc

and then not enough strong for formula rookie to 75%
i put it to 100% and i don't feel the car's weight... but I've never driven a real formula ford so I can not compare

King Cactus
24-09-2012, 19:33
I am still on build 296. What I found weird is driving the Formula A at high speed on a long straight the car starts wobbling and get out of balance, going from left to right with very strong FFB trough the wheel. I really need to hold the wheel much stronger so that I don't go off. I'm just trying to keep it in a straight line. For the rest it feels pretty good and I feel like I can feel/predict pretty well what the car is going to do.

Roger Prynne
24-09-2012, 19:47
I am still on build 296

Why... may I ask?.

Bruno Alexandre
24-09-2012, 19:49
Hes a Junior Roger :p

Just another 2 weeks and he will be able to play the latest version :)


I am still on build 296. What I found weird is driving the Formula A at high speed on a long straight the car starts wobbling and get out of balance, going from left to right with very strong FFB trough the wheel. I really need to hold the wheel much stronger so that I don't go off. I'm just trying to keep it in a straight line. For the rest it feels pretty good and I feel like I can feel/predict pretty well what the car is going to do.

The FFB and the physics changed alot in the builds above yours, so you will notice a big difference when you get the hands on it. Just wait :)

Umer Ahmad
24-09-2012, 20:15
or upgrade and you don't have to wait :)

agree with Leau's observations in general

Roger Prynne
24-09-2012, 22:54
Hes a Junior Roger :p
Ah yea so he is... thanks.

King Cactus
25-09-2012, 21:31
Yup, I'll wait a bit between builds. Very tempting to get team member though :rolleyes: