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Rob Prange
01-11-2011, 17:49
Race driver Ben Collins, who joined Slightly Mad Studios and their WMD-powered C.A.R.S. project as Physics & Handling Consultant last month, has compared the developing title to professional driving simulators.

To find out what the former "Stig" and accomplished race driver has to say about C.A.R.S., check out the frontpage article:

http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/former-stig-ben-collins-impressed-with-c-a-r-s/

sagedavid
01-11-2011, 18:04
Like everything that has been reported on the opinion of "professional drivers" about car simulations, we will take (and use) these declarations very carefully :)...

Thomas Taschler
01-11-2011, 18:07
Like everything that has been reported on the opinion of "professional drivers" about car simulations, we will take (and use) these declarations very carefully :)...

Anthony Davidsons opinion about F12011 for example? ^^

Ian Bell
01-11-2011, 18:11
Anthony Davidsons opinion about F12011 for example? ^^

This isn't anything like that guys.

Ben has been told (which he can confirm) to give his honest opinion which he has been doing. Otherwise it's of no use to us.

Remember, we're not in the marketing phase for the game ship here. We're in the 'improve the base tech' phase and that's what we're pestering Ben for and that's what he's pestering us for. I asked him today to make his posts public which he has been doing. This will continue. The whole modus operandi of what where doing here relies on openness, honesty and transparency and we're not going to be taking liberties with that ethos.

Cynics can be cynics, I get that. I'm one also.

Simon Kaminski
01-11-2011, 18:12
Can't you invite him to the forums, please? :)

Joao Monteiro
01-11-2011, 18:18
Can't you invite him to the forums, please? :)

He already is in the forum... :p
Check his profile. About 10 posts already. ;)

sagedavid
01-11-2011, 18:19
Anthony Davidsons opinion about F12011 for example? ^^
... or many other praising the merits or criticizing iRacing, for example ... (as saw in one of the biggest (?) thread of the forum...)

kyle_katarn
01-11-2011, 18:21
Is a good news what you said, I understand that the words used to make the portal entry are extracted from a "private" conversation in your high level forums.
Esas declaraciónes hechas en "petite comité" son las que queremos oír :D

Thomas Taschler
01-11-2011, 18:21
Ben has been told (which he can confirm) to give his honest opinion which he has been doing. Otherwise it's of no use to us.

Remember, we're not in the marketing phase for the game ship here. We're in the 'improve the base tech' phase and that's what we're pestering Ben for and that's what he's pestering us for.

^ Thats clear for me :)

But it happened too often that someones name has been used to sell a game.

Ian Bell
01-11-2011, 18:22
My honest opinion is that I'd rate Ben's opinion above any other pro driver I can think of. He has the benefit of being both a pro driver in multiple series in addition to trialing and speed testing more cars on a racing circuit, from base hatches to top supercars, than any other driver alive. His feedback is invaluable and not to be underestimated.

Rocinante
01-11-2011, 18:52
Ben Collins makes a living from being one of the best all round professional drivers. I don't think for one second he would ever put on a marketing cap and put his thumbs up if it was not a solid product.

Dude27
01-11-2011, 19:06
I would say the more he will be honest, the more this game will be amazing... This game needs constructive discussion not just the usual "I love it, it's perfect"... look at the thread on "lighting" (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?54-Lighting/page6&highlight=lighting)... the last screen's batch from Darren's creative team are amazing, the improvement is spectacular!!

Leemstradamus
01-11-2011, 19:19
Great to hear Ben's comments, just further shows how good this early base code is. Like it has been said not only does he drive actual race cars no doubt on the Imola track in real life he has tested countless road cars and can give us feedback on the differences of both. Keep up the great work guys and suzy!

Mark Silcock
01-11-2011, 21:08
My honest opinion is that I'd rate Ben's opinion above any other pro driver I can think of. He has the benefit of being both a pro driver in multiple series in addition to trialing and speed testing more cars on a racing circuit, from base hatches to top supercars, than any other driver alive. His feedback is invaluable and not to be underestimated.

I agree Ian but as you mentioned he needs to give you valuable feedback to improve the model. That comment on the WMD website is there for a different reason entirely.... PR!

Show us what he didn't like to give us confidence he is going to be of good use to the project.

Ian Bell
01-11-2011, 21:10
I agree Ian but as you mentioned he needs to give you valuable feedback to improve the model. That comment on the WMD website is there for a different reason entirely.... PR!

Show us what he didn't like to give us confidence he is going to be of good use to the project.

He has already posted what he didn't like. Just search his posts.

Mark Silcock
01-11-2011, 21:11
He has already posted what he didn't like. Just search his posts.

Ok thanks will do, sorry bit quick to post :P

Remco Van Dijk
01-11-2011, 21:33
He has already posted what he didn't like. Just search his posts.
Most of his comments he posted in the staff subforum ;)

Simon Kaminski
01-11-2011, 21:34
That's true I only found 3 Posts of him

WallyM
01-11-2011, 21:41
My honest opinion is that I'd rate Ben's opinion above any other pro driver I can think of. He has the benefit of being both a pro driver in multiple series in addition to trialing and speed testing more cars on a racing circuit, from base hatches to top supercars, than any other driver alive. His feedback is invaluable and not to be underestimated.
He has to also try other comparable sims to provide comparative feedback. If this is the only retail sim he has ever played, he will of course love it. He must be given the opportunity to say "Hey, this is great, but the FFB in <insert random sim here> feels more realistic when you slide", for example.

Feedback from a real racing driver is one thing, and a valuable thing, but a sim will never feel like a real car. To round out expert opinion, I would love to also see feedback from Greger Huttu, representing the best sim racer in the world.

Are Leistad
01-11-2011, 22:23
^ I agree. As you say, it's important that Ben Collins uses other consumer sims as a reference, not only the Wirth Research Le Mans / F1 simulator he has experience with (mentioned here (http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?661-Game-physics-comparison-discussion&p=17764&viewfull=1#post17764)). If he hasn't already tried them, SMS should set him up with all the relevant sims.

Ben, if you're reading this, perhaps you want to comment? :)

Here's the Wirth Research simulator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqfRDVGtXJ4

Johan Sundkvist
02-11-2011, 08:56
Most of his comments he posted in the staff subforum ;)

Doh! :)

Why must he know about other simulators? He is an expert on actual cars, right?! We are not simulating other simulators I hope ;)

Piwo76
02-11-2011, 09:17
Doh! :)
Why must he know about other simulators? He is an expert on actual cars, right?! We are not simulating other simulators I hope ;)

Because when he last played a racing simulator in 1985 he will be impressed with pretty much everything which is available today :D

Remco Van Dijk
02-11-2011, 09:20
All the 'internal feedback' that he has given up til now was referenced to real car behaviour and real track conditions, not to any simulator.

Graham Hawkins
02-11-2011, 09:35
Because when he last played a racing simulator in 1985 he will be impressed with pretty much everything which is available today :D

Which is why he must compare to real life NOT other sims, modern or old. Let the developers compare to other sims if they want, Bens input should be based on real life.

Piwo76
02-11-2011, 09:45
Which is why he must compare to real life NOT other sims, modern or old. Let the developers compare to other sims if they want, Bens input should be based on real life.

I'm not saying he should compare it to other sims. Of course he should compare it to the real life behavior but in my opinion he also must know how well other sims simulate real life. Mainly because an absolut perfect simulation can probably never be achieved.
Maybe he is playing CARS and thinks "Hey this is pretty realistic" and afterwards he plays another sim and thinks "Oh thats even better". I think that would be a pretty valuable input.

Ian Bell
02-11-2011, 09:47
I'm not saying he should compare it to other sims. Of course he should compare it to the real life behavior but in my opinion he also must know how well other sims simulate real life. Mainly because an absolut perfect simulation can probably never be achieved.
Maybe he is playing CARS and thinks "Hey this is pretty realistic" and afterwards he plays another sim and thinks "Oh thats even better". I think that would be a pretty valuable input.

He's giving us a lot more than 'hey this is pretty realistic'. He did compare it to another simulator though that he's aware of. The professional Wirth system used to train real drivers.

When we're finished (and we've only started (I really do need to keep saying that :) )) I see no reason that we should accept anything less than pro driver simulation levels of handling.

Piwo76
02-11-2011, 09:51
I see no reason that we should accept anything less than pro driver simulation levels of handling.

I think I can live with that :D
Thanks for the answer

Remco Van Dijk
02-11-2011, 10:05
That's true I only found 3 Posts of him
We're looking into getting more of Ben's feedback into the forums.

Are Leistad
02-11-2011, 10:58
Doh! :)

Why must he know about other simulators? He is an expert on actual cars, right?! We are not simulating other simulators I hope ;)
No, we're not. But in testing other sims one can possibly get "Aha!" moments. I.e. no consumer sim is exactly like real life or even a commercial motion platform sim. So upon testing sim X,Y and Z, a pro driver could possibly discover that sim X actually does a certain thing closer to real life (or the Wirth sim) than our sim, and sim Y does another thing a bit closer. Then that experience could be reflected back into our sim.

capetuso
02-11-2011, 10:58
When we're finished (and we've only started (I really do need to keep saying that :) )) I see no reason that we should accept anything less than pro driver simulation levels of handling.

That's exactly why all of us little freaks drivers are joining this project as one of the few hopes to get what we are allways promised and almost never get.
Please keep on this way till the end.

BR.

WallyM
02-11-2011, 11:01
I'm not saying he should compare it to other sims. Of course he should compare it to the real life behavior but in my opinion he also must know how well other sims simulate real life. Mainly because an absolut perfect simulation can probably never be achieved.
Maybe he is playing CARS and thinks "Hey this is pretty realistic" and afterwards he plays another sim and thinks "Oh thats even better". I think that would be a pretty valuable input.
Exactly right. A racing driver approaching a corner feels physical G forces, weight transfer, he is wearing fire gear, gloves, helmet etc etc - all of that "seat of the pants" stuff. He is never going to try a sim and say "hey, that feels just like racing a real car" because it never will. And it would also be silly of him to say that CARS is rubbish because he can't feel any G forces in his neck. If he is to give input into how close the feedback that the sim does offer through FFB effects and visuals is to his real life experience, then ideally he would also compare CARS to other sims. It's not about making CARS be like other sims, it's about educating Ben in what the current state of the art is in sims, and the limited ways in which they can simulate reality, so that CARS can go beyond that. Of course he would also compare it to real life, and not just to other sims. That comparison to other sims is what all the rest of us are for!

Stefan Hartmann
02-11-2011, 11:49
We're looking into getting more of Ben's feedback into the forums.
Can't you make the staff forums "read only" for us? http://forum.virtualracing.org/images/smilies/peepwall.gif

Remco Van Dijk
02-11-2011, 12:12
Can't you make the staff forums "read only" for us? http://forum.virtualracing.org/images/smilies/peepwall.gif
Indeed, we can't :)

It's the place where 'highly confidential' things are discussed ;)

Dan Blamey
02-11-2011, 20:58
Can't you make the staff forums "read only" for us? http://forum.virtualracing.org/images/smilies/peepwall.gif

Most of them already are, they're the threads tagged with [SMS]

:)

Mark Silcock
02-11-2011, 21:54
Maybe someone can copy and paste the comments from Ben that are ok for us to read into this thread as we can currently only see 3 posts of his 12 posts. Those 3 don't give us much info.

Personally I would like Ben to have a blog of how he tests the game and his findings/thoughts.

WallyM
02-11-2011, 22:25
Maybe someone can copy and paste the comments from Ben that are ok for us to read into this thread as we can currently only see 3 posts of his 12 posts. Those 3 don't give us much info.

Personally I would like Ben to have a blog of how he tests the game and his findings/thoughts.
Yes, this would be fascinating for all of us.

Remco Van Dijk
03-11-2011, 07:04
Maybe someone can copy and paste the comments from Ben that are ok for us to read into this thread as we can currently only see 3 posts of his 12 posts. Those 3 don't give us much info.

Personally I would like Ben to have a blog of how he tests the game and his findings/thoughts.
We are discussing internally how to do such a 'Ben's Blog'. Possibly it will be a synopsis every two weeks or so of his internal reports.

Mark Silcock
03-11-2011, 07:36
We are discussing internally how to do such a 'Ben's Blog'. Possibly it will be a synopsis every two weeks or so of his internal reports.

I think you meant to say video blog :p

Johan Sundkvist
03-11-2011, 07:36
We are discussing internally how to do such a 'Ben's Blog'. Possibly it will be a synopsis every two weeks or so of his internal reports.

That sounds like good middleground and a great booster for the project!